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russian armor

Soviets since the last patch

19 Jun 2013, 21:08 PM
#41
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2013, 20:56 PMCrells
Agree with basilone, the PPSH is a nice upgrade but does not give them the same DPS as Pgrens, i reckon the only reason people think they are better than Pgrens is the fact they HtD and get a huuge survivability boost

I don't expect 2 PPSH to match PGrens, but the 6 PPSH from the Shocks should. Shocks own PGrens because they have a ton of durability (too much imo) but comparing something like PGren vs Engi and Shock vs Pio, PGren wins much faster.
19 Jun 2013, 22:44 PM
#42
20 Jun 2013, 08:52 AM
#43
avatar of ArmaReborn

Posts: 52

They should just make it that weapons cannot be fired out the back of the m3, or give the squads huge accuracy penalites.
20 Jun 2013, 09:15 AM
#44
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Nerf HT flame. (No other flame nerfed, even though Ostheer suffers like hell from it due to armor reliance)

Nerf HT survival. (M5 at same cost has 1.5x Front 4x Rear armor)

Do nothing about M3.

Gj Relic.
20 Jun 2013, 11:07 AM
#45
avatar of Hissy

Posts: 176

I don't even know where to start.

Pioneer / Combat Engineers did not have a habit of chasing down ENTIRE full health squads and killing them regardless of armour type. Flammenwerfers with the dual flamers would just flat out terrorize entire armys even on retreat.

Comparing the M5 to the Halftrack is absolute stupidity, why in the hell would you build an M5 when you have the option of a T70 for a similar amount of fuel? Far too late in the game to even consider being "similar" to the Halftrack in anything but cost.

The M3 needs to take more damage from small arms fire as it's mounted mgs currently outrange Grenadiers / Pioneers which means it's extremley hard to cause damage to them.

Do you actually play both factions, or just Osteer? You sound like someones just taken your dummy out (IE Flammenwerfer). Did you honestly believe the ability to chase down and kill squads outright regardless of there health with a cheap unit (80/25) was within acceptable balance? Perhaps we should buff the AC's accuracy on COH against retreating Infantry so zero squads can escape, should be fun!
20 Jun 2013, 11:38 AM
#46
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2013, 11:07 AMHissy
I don't even know where to start.

Pioneer / Combat Engineers did not have a habit of chasing down ENTIRE full health squads and killing them regardless of armour type. Flammenwerfers with the dual flamers would just flat out terrorize entire armys even on retreat.

Orly. You must be playing vs AI if you have never seen Flamers in M3 raping retreaters, or the KV8.

Comparing the M5 to the Halftrack is absolute stupidity, why in the hell would you build an M5 when you have the option of a T70 for a similar amount of fuel? Far too late in the game to even condier being "similar" to the Halftrack in anything but cost.

So in your imaginary world, comparing cost is "absolute stupidity"...
Ill tell younwhats absolute stupidity. Comparing AC to M3 is. Because the difference is absolutely stupid.


The M3 needs to take more damage from small arms fire as it's mounted mgs currently outrange Grenadiers / Pioneers which means it's extremley hard to cause damage to them.

So be ause the 50cal rapes infantry in both firepower and range, your solution is to increase its dmg from small arms?
But you just clearly pointed out that small arms CANT EVEN REACH IT and GET EATEN ALIVE BY 50CAL.
Logic, your suggestion has NONE related to the premises you yourself stated.


Do you actually play both factions, or just Osteer?

Yes, and I supremely doubt you do. I bet you also mostly play non 1v1.

You sound like someones just taken your dummy out (IE Flammenwerfer).

You sound like a Sov fanboi with no objectivity.

Did you honestly believe the ability to chase down and kill squads outright regardless of there health with a cheap unit (80/25) was within acceptable balance?

Nice how your blatant bias left out the 120 Muni cost. Probably because you didnt know the exact number and didnt want to appear stupid by giving themwrong one, but are too lazy to go check it. Furthermore, if youve seen my hundreds of posts, dozens of them mention reducing flame retreat dmg, and that flame is broken ACROSS THE BOARD.
Flame HT dmg is stupid on retreat. M3 flame dmg is stupid on retreat. KV8 dmg is stuoid on retreat.
But nice try at false implications.


Perhaps we should buff the AC's accuracy on COH against retreating Infantry so zero squads can escape, should be fun!

The funny thing about you here, is that ACs dmg IS shit not only against retreaters but standing units.
You just completely disqualified yourself from even the pretence of informed discussion or objectivity.
And again, hyperbole and falsemimplication that anyone, anywhere, has suggested this ridiculous premise.



Notice the caustic, personal, insulting, sarcastic, exaggerating and ultimately discussion destroying tone and content. How does your own medicine taste?

Maybe when you learn how to discuss with respect to others, in a mature and impersonal manner about impersonal matters, you will receive the same courtesy in return.

I can see why you call yourself "Hissy", because your posts read like a 12yr olds hissy-fit!

You get one chance at a civil response or you go right on my block list.
20 Jun 2013, 11:56 AM
#47
avatar of The_Riddler

Posts: 336

Nullist did not properly read Hissy's post, nor responded with logical argumentation in effect of that, nor made accurate assumptions about Hissy, nor understood the sarcasm about AC's on CoH1.
20 Jun 2013, 12:05 PM
#48
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
I did not, because none of that was included in Hissy's post. Therefore doesn not warrant a response including those, instead, one including caustic personal attacks and irrelevancies.

Riddler notably is repeatedly banned from streams of active casters for being a blatant troll, which he is demonstrating above as well.
20 Jun 2013, 12:09 PM
#49
avatar of Hissy

Posts: 176

For all intents and purposes i will ignore your last post and assume your a troll. I'm just shocked at how much you've glanced over and picked out anything that looks to reinforce your own point.

Just a little note, i've never seen a KV-8 "Chase" down a squad in any of my games up to Rank 40. On the flipside i can count dozens where a Flammenwerfer has done the same, theres a reason Osteer players flip out and rage quit when they lose their first HT - Bad players.

I highly suggest you reread my post Nullist and then come back with some constructive critism.
20 Jun 2013, 12:15 PM
#50
avatar of The_Riddler

Posts: 336

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2013, 12:05 PMNullist
Riddler notably is repeatedly banned from streams of active casters for being a blatant troll, which he is demonstrating above as well.


You did post what you have posted, so I am entitled to respond to it. It is hard to point out the two of you agree on some points without saying you clearly misread what he wrote. I apologize if you feel like this was too personal.

On the other hand, you assume a lot about other people. To rectify your statement about me: its only until very recent that I started typing in stream chats, because I never really felt the urge. I've only been banned once in a period of over 2 years, which was based on an accident.
20 Jun 2013, 12:16 PM
#51
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Blocked. Biased troll identified.

Seems the community destroyers have finally arrived on the otherwise rational, reasonable and respectful CoH2.org.
20 Jun 2013, 12:28 PM
#52
avatar of Hissy

Posts: 176

Alright Nullist, i'll bite.

Answer these three simple questions.

Do you feel it's unbalanced that M3/Halftracks can chase and kill Squads far more valuable than themselves and swing games in there favour extremley easily?

Would you, as a soviet player build an M5 Half Track if you had the option of building a T70?

Would you, as a Osteer player have an easier time dealing with M3 Scout Cars if they took more small arms fire?

I look forward to your response.
20 Jun 2013, 13:24 PM
#53
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 951

I'm not nullist, but i'll just say something anyway.

-It is unbalanced that M3/Halftracks can chase and kill Squads far more valuable than themselves.

This, however, is more pronounced with the M3. German squads are firstly smaller. The M3 has a much better top-mounted gun, with a longer range. M3s with flamers come earlier. The Ostheer reliance on crew-served weapons makes them more vulnerable to light vehicles. The flammenhalftrack has been nerfed in the recent patch, with reload time between bursts increased by 6(!) times, from 0.5 to 3 seconds. The M3 has not seen any such patch.

The Soviet player might build one halftrack to reinforce from. But after the first T-70 there really isn't any point building a second either- might as well save for T-34s.

The last point. An ostheer player would indeed have an easier time dealing with M3s if they took more small arms fire. But that would be applying the wrong solution to the problem. The M3 is already very vulnerable to small arms- the main complaint is the damage it does, both garrisoned and ungarrisoned, to retreating units. Other complaints bring up similarities to abusive garrisoned vehicles in COH1, namely Roos and Brens. Increasing small arms damage will not reduce the ability to nullify squads on retreat, and will result in Ost players and Soviet players both dissatisfied.
20 Jun 2013, 13:30 PM
#54
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

Still it continues: evenly matched opponents. It is very tough to counter the shock troop spam and, especially, SU76 armies. If the gun is nerfed I am surprised - I lost an entire gren squad to one blast. To be fair, my opponent went T2 - T4 with no clown car spam but it serves to illustrate the utility of all soviet units. Mortaring HMGs? Good luck, they are six men strong. My rifle nades and bundled nades do hardly any damage. My breakout unit, the flame h/t gets screwed by guards and nades.

The bombard abilities of the ZiS and SU-76, when all I have from T1-T3 is a fucking mortar is ridiculous. Sovs field effective indirect fire, my option is to take the sucky commander with the mortar h/t.

To add insult to injury, my mid-game doctrine unlocks are hardly game changers... oooh my troops can *run fast* when the other side is calling in flame tanks.

If you aren't playing 1 v 1 your views don't really apply to this conversation - I am having a mixed experience in bigger games which suggests that skill is coming into play more than balance, which I'm cool with.
20 Jun 2013, 17:00 PM
#55
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

The Flame HT needs a nerf, but so does the Scout Car. I think the Scout Car is powerful in combos, but it is nt a hard thing to balance.

Frist off, the global ones: Any units inside any vehicle, Ostheer or Soviet, should receive a chunk of damage upon the vehicle's destruction. Period. Arguably this will affect the Soviets more, simply because they have two transports.

Secondly, the Axis HT has nice armor. Lower its acceleration and max speed, it'll make chasing squads harder, it will make it harder to maneuver. Pretty good target vs AT Rifles and AT nades become more effective.

Third: Scout car need a slight fuel cost increase. Right now, it is cheaper than the AC, more powerful, more resistant, it can cap points most of the time and requires no upgrades to serve its full purpose.

Scout Car and AC are not equivalent units, imho, but its the early vehicle you can get with both factions, and its the first true fuel investment (AT Nades and Molotovs are too, but its a one time payment).




20 Jun 2013, 18:46 PM
#56
avatar of Tristan44

Posts: 915

Just nerf kv-8 and im fine... everything else is managable. Su-76 range is ridiculous though also.. but I feel its more on the bigger maps I see those units and biggger maps seem to favor soviets (from my experience).. I wreck soviets on smaller maps but I get wrecked on larger maps.
20 Jun 2013, 19:21 PM
#57
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

I can't help but think that the Ostheer needs a T2 unit like the HT that has more utility and less cheese than the flammenwerfer. Maybe an HMG halfie option, like the PE, might be the answer.

And, yes, troops inside destroyed vehicles need to take damage. Right now the M3 is a double nightmare: blow it up and you have a full-health flamer team to deal with.
20 Jun 2013, 19:58 PM
#58
avatar of Crells

Posts: 255

Why do people think the scout car costs 80 20, it by itself does little damage, you need the engineers which makes its 320 mp, 20 fuel 60 munis. so the fact it wins vs 1 gren squad is perfectly acceptable, and btw 1 gren squad that stands and fights to last with both an rifle nade and panzer faust almost destroys it and leaves it easy pickings for a nearby squad.

Do not nerf the m3 it is needed to break out of heavy MG spam, BUT nerf the flame damage vs retreating units.
20 Jun 2013, 20:06 PM
#59
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

^ That might be a good compromise. However, don't underestimate the 2 x mgs on the M3. For the basic unit cost you get two good anti-inf Mgs much better than the wehr ac
20 Jun 2013, 20:15 PM
#60
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2013, 19:58 PMCrells
Why do people think the scout car costs 80 20, it by itself does little damage, you need the engineers which makes its 320 mp, 20 fuel 60 munis. so the fact it wins vs 1 gren squad is perfectly acceptable, and btw 1 gren squad that stands and fights to last with both an rifle nade and panzer faust almost destroys it and leaves it easy pickings for a nearby squad.

Do not nerf the m3 it is needed to break out of heavy MG spam, BUT nerf the flame damage vs retreating units.


The scout car's 50 cal does decent damage. I've seen it defeat HMG teams up front, regardless of cover. The cost associated with Combat Engineer's does not set you back, since you already start with that unit. It will, however, cost you 60 munis to upgrade those flamethrowers. That's fine: its a good combo, and has its uses.

The reason why I suggested upping the fuel cost, and not to touch is stats is precisely that: the scout car is needed in the current meta, but it needs to set the Soviet player back a little bit. Even increasing its population count would be acceptable (Soviets already have higher pop counts against their manpower, so it does tax them).
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