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Panzer 4 Command Tank is Overperforming

16 Sep 2015, 21:07 PM
#81
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Do you even read the entire post before you respond?

Misunderstood you there, sorry.
16 Sep 2015, 22:45 PM
#82
avatar of momo4sho
Senior Caster Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 464 | Subs: 1

The command P4 won't beat any mediums, heavy RNG aside.

The self-buff makes the unit more durable than it is necessary and could be removed.
I'm in favour of how the current aura works, because the previous sector-based aura wasn't intuitive at all.

I also wouldn't want to give this unit the "T34-85 treatment" because it is one of the few units that allows skipping T3 and makes T4 builds somewhat reasonable and not just a fairytale. Otherwise there's not that much incentive over a regular P4.


What makes the command P4 perceived as overpowered is mainly the combination with (vet 3-) lmg grens and pak walls, which on their own perform at the peak compared to their counterparts. Throw in a Puma and factor in the non-existent teching cost and you got yourself a very deadly and affordable unit composition in the mid-game.

Therefore i believe the mobile defense commander is easily one of the best (if not the best against USF) commander in 1v1, which only lacks in the late-game.


If you would remove the self-buff i don't think the command P4 constitutes as a huge problem per se... it's more the combination and synergy with other units (cost-efficient long range infantry, best sniper, best mg, best at gun) that makes it really scary.


I think perhaps I may have used the wrong language in associating pz4 command tanks effectiveness against other mediums. But because of this misstep I think it would be foolish to give the unit a pass. When you say "perceived as overpowered" you are basically implying that it isn't, correct? But what I find interesting is that you go on to describe the very same point I make in this unit's very efficient role in the Wehrmacht army. This units enormous endurance buff to already several of the best core units in the ENTIRE GAME make it quite for a frustrating experience. You also describe the non- existent teching cost associated with this strategy. So it seems to me that you and I are not very different in our assessments of this unit itself and the role it plays. If you disagree with my conclusion please explain further, I am very interested in your response.

And just another note. In high level 1v1 play this unit, vs USF, is arguably, and I mean this seriously, close to a win button. I will re-iterate this again. The amount of resources you must use to combat this unit ( along with the core that it buffs) effectively far exceeds the amount that is used to create it. That alone should be an indicator that the unit is over performing in its role.

And another point on the discussion this thread has brought. I find that many people who reply to this thread make very un - sophisticated arguments that provide no value to this discussion. Merely saying " This unit is fine dont touch it ". If you really believe this unit deserves a pass, provide logical evidence in your argument that this unit is not over performing in 1v1. ( The game mode that balance making decisions are mainly catered for ).
16 Sep 2015, 23:02 PM
#83
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Command tank is fine. No change needed.
17 Sep 2015, 01:42 AM
#84
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 08:41 AMRiCE


So whats the point locking it behind teching?
The tank cannot fight with other tanks. No one will pull a command panzer as their first vehicle. In practice you choose T3 or T4, build a normal tank, THEN call in a P4 to receive aura boost.


all i am suggest is really give it a build time. for me i think all call in should have a build time. like I really dislike the idea when you destroy a heavy call in tank, as long as they have resource, they can immediate get another one. which give you no real window to advance or benefit to focus fire on destroy the heavy tank, might as well kill more infantry give him more MP bleed.
17 Sep 2015, 04:08 AM
#85
avatar of Ginnungagap

Posts: 324 | Subs: 2

When you say "perceived as overpowered" you are basically implying that it isn't, correct? But what I find interesting is that you go on to describe the very same point I make in this unit's very efficient role in the Wehrmacht army. This units enormous endurance buff to already several of the best core units in the ENTIRE GAME make it quite for a frustrating experience. You also describe the non- existent teching cost associated with this strategy. So it seems to me that you and I are not very different in our assessments of this unit itself and the role it plays. If you disagree with my conclusion please explain further, I am very interested in your response.


I'll fully agree that the command P4 in combination with ostheer units is incredibly strong (and the best thing against USF 1v1), not because the command P4 is that strong (against medium tanks) but because it buffs units that don't need a buff to be efficient. ALmost exactly like you said.

The buff amplifies problems, and i would like to see these problems addressed first:

Grens with lmg and vet completely outscale every other soviet infantry and to an extend American infantry (until the patch hits). Besides shocks close range infantry are absolutely worthless. Riflenades are ridiculous.

Imagine Soviets could call in a command P4: Even with the buff, consripts would hardly be cost-efficient against grens in the long run.


Mg42 is the best mg. M2HB and Vickers would perform well, if their crew wouldn't get shredded by long range DPS and riflenades. Still, they cost more (to reinforce) for no good reason.

Pak 40 is the best at gun. The British AT gun would be almost as good, if it had not the same problem with the missing cover modifier as the American AT gun. And target weakpoint.

To speak verbosely: The current game design is fundamentally flawed. You have a faction with high long range DPS (ostheer) that was designed to fight durable, cheap 6 men squads/support weapons (soviets). With the introduction of the 2 new allied factions and costly 4 men (support-) squads the whole concept gets thrown out of the window. The german sniper is the best example: This unit will never be balanced without target tables; it does either too much damage to fast (as it is now) or too little damage.

The command P4 is just the cherry on the asymmetrical-unbalanced-cake, so i would't give it all the blame.

This game is drowning in new bugs and literally hundreds of unintended balance issues because Relic doesn't understand their own increasingly complex engine. It takes a community outrage and a Youtube video after release to make them aware that the bofors had totally busted values. But let me stop right here before it gets to toxic...
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