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russian armor

Remodeling Soviet army

9 Jun 2013, 23:35 PM
#1
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

That's how I'd like to see Soviet army in a future

HQ

Combat Enineers
- Cost changed to 180 MP
- ROKS-3 upgrade increase to 80 MU
- new possible upgrade - PPsh - upgrade all squad members with PPsh - cost 50MU, disables all other upgrades
- Demo cost changed to 60 MU
- Can construct Sandbags positions, Tanktraps, Emplacements (talk about emplacements, this thing would be like an empty building in which units could get in - mortars, paks, infantry [no MG's], cost: 50-100MP)
- Barbed wire construction time reduce (4 seconds each when all engineers are building)

Conscripts
- cost changed to 260 MP
- Squad members Increased to 8
- only 5 out of 8 squad members are equipped with weapon
- Molotovs are now thrown faster
- Group Zeal - passive ability, increases all other conscripts fighting abilities when squads are close to each other
- Oorah! Ability is now free

Upgrades at HQ
- Weapon reserves - Global Upgrade, equip all consripts with additional 3 rifles so all members are carrying weapon, cost: 300MP 50Fuel
- Conscripts combat package - contains Molotovs and AT nades, cost: 250MP 40Fuel
- Barbed wire cutters - all engineers now have barbed wire cutters, are now able to cut every wires, cost: 100MP 20Feul

T1

Shock Troops
- Removed as a doctrinal unit, it's build now in T1
- Cost changed to 300MP
- New ability - Sprint later Fire-up - makes your squad sprint for a short time, Fire-up also increases resistance against suppression and when activated it removes suppression from squad, cost: free
- grenade cost reduced to 30MU
M3 Halftruck
- cost changed to 120MP and 20Fuel
- it now requires other Tier building to be build (T2, T3 or T4)
- Both guns must have reduced damage
Soviet Sniper Team
- read other Topic I've made

Possible upgrades in T1
- For the Motherland - Global upgrade, Increases Shock Troops members to 7, this 7th member will hold red flag (he will not be equipped with weapon), increases armor, damage, accuracy, replaces Sprint with Fire-up ability, cost: 150MP 30Fuel

T2

Maxim MG
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Maxim MG now deal more damage to enemy infantry
- cost changed to 220MP
- Reduce angle at which it shoots in building

Mortar team
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Cost changed to 260MP

Guards
- cost changed to 300MP
- comes already equipped with 2 PTRS, can be upgrades with 2 DP-28 and 2 SVT-40 (50MU for both upgrades)
- all weapon have significantly reduced drop rate, SVT-40 can't be dropped
- Grenade cost changed to 35 MU (i assume it's better than Shock troops nade? if now, or when both squads use same nade so cost changed to 30MU)

ZiS-3 AT
- Graphic changes, make it less toy gun (gun should be longer)
- cost changed to 310MP
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Light artillery barrage cost changed to 30MU
- Increase damage from main gun

T3

T-70
- increase it's accuracy to enemy infantry
- increase damage
- make it faster
- cost changed to 240MP and 50Fuel

T34/76
- cost changed to 300MP and 75 Fuel
- remove Ram ability, instead of it, it can use Overdrive ability (for free or for 25MU)
- Infantry can now sit on T-34 armor, max 8 man sitting, one spot available, infantry sitting on T-34 would receive more damage from enemy units
- LoS should be decreased
- after researching "T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun" this tank can be upgraded with T34/85 gun at the cost of 70MU and increases LoS

SU-76M
- Moved from T4 to T3
- Cost changed to 280MP and 50 Fuel
- Penetration and damage is the same as ZiS-3 AT gun

M5 Halftruck
- cost changed to 150MP and 30 Fuel
- Quad upgrade cost changed to 80MU

T34/85
- Available in T3 as a new unit (does not replace T34/76) after researching "T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun)
- Stats match T34/76 and has increased LoS
- T34/85 gun has increased penetration, accuracy and damage to enemy tanks but have reduced accuracy to enemy infantry and slightly increased reload (by 1 second)

Possible upgrades in T3
- T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun - enables you got build T34/85 and upgrade already existing T34/76 with ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun - cost 200MP and 60Fuel

T4

SU-85
- cost changed to 360MP and 75Fuel
- this ability that increases visibility is only working when tank is not moving (even can't turn)
- Reload should be slightly increased

KV-1
- cost: 440MP and 100 Fuel
- second greatest armor after IS-2 that has very slow turret and is very slow, makes a role of KT in CoH1
- has the same penetration and damage as the T34/76

Katiusza
- cost changed to 340MP and 75 Fuel
- fires all rockets at once (not 3 rockets in 4 or 5 series)

Mechanics
- new unit, 4 man squad, none is equipped (useless in combat because they can't fire and pick up weapons)
- they have advanced repair kits that one Mechanic squad match 2.5 Engineer squads repairing
- they can supervise buildings reducing build time of only tanks and AT guns
- they gain veterancy by repairing things, veterancy lvl's are increasing repairing rate, and reduce damage taken while repairing
- each squad member should have 40 HP (all other combat units have 80HP)

Possible upgrade in T4
- Repairing Mechanics - spawns near T4 3 man that will repair tanks and AT guns when they are near them, when killed they will spawn again (20 seconds for each mechanic), they dont get veterancy, you can't control them, have same repair stats as mechanics that can be build, cost: 100MU
9 Jun 2013, 23:45 PM
#2
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3

I like a lot of these changes, in particular the changes to soviet infantry and the addition of global upgrades.

I feel like it'd be really boring to play against T34 + barrage from the SU 76, perhaps simply remove the barrage ability and give it the same range as the AT gun if it doesn't have it already.
9 Jun 2013, 23:53 PM
#3
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

SU-76 barrage isnt that great tho and that tank was used as a tank destroyer and as self-propelled arty
10 Jun 2013, 00:10 AM
#4
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

300mp 50 fuel for 3 more weak rifles on conscripts? Seems more efficient to tech for something different.
10 Jun 2013, 00:13 AM
#5
avatar of heeroduo

Posts: 144

like Estern front :)

and i agree need TankTrap.
10 Jun 2013, 00:40 AM
#6
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

300mp 50 fuel for 3 more weak rifles on conscripts? Seems more efficient to tech for something different.


Imagine that you have 4 conscripts squads, with this upgrade you got 12 more rifles

maybe cost is too high, Fuel is Okay IMO because Soviet player had to choose between fast T-34 or other tank or upgraded and moar efficient infantry, cost might be lowered to 200MP and 50 Fuel, also note that Soviets are starting with 50 Fuel
10 Jun 2013, 00:42 AM
#7
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3

SU-76 barrage isnt that great tho and that tank was used as a tank destroyer and as self-propelled arty


Considering the barrage can decrew a weapons team in one shot I think it's pretty strong. Historical accuracy is nice in some games but CoH is pretty far the other direction already and gameplay > realism.
10 Jun 2013, 05:25 AM
#8
avatar of ArmaReborn

Posts: 52

Some of my thoughts, things not commented on are thought to be reasonable.

That's how I'd like to see Soviet army in a future

HQ

Combat Enineers
- Cost changed to 180 MP
- ROKS-3 upgrade increase to 80 MU
- new possible upgrade - PPsh - upgrade all squad members with PPsh - cost 50MU, disables all other upgrades
- Demo cost changed to 60 MU
- Can construct Sandbags positions, Tanktraps, Emplacements (talk about emplacements, this thing would be like an empty building in which units could get in - mortars, paks, infantry [no MG's], cost: 50-100MP)
- Barbed wire construction time reduce (4 seconds each when all engineers are building)

-Flamers do not need to increased in cost.
-Neither do they need PPsh, unless you mean it is researchable at HQ.
-Game is fine without tank traps
-If PPsh is replaced like this as it should, should replace the doctrine ability with infantry construction (like infantry doc COH1) where conscripts/penals can lay mines.

Conscripts
- cost changed to 260 MP
- Squad members Increased to 8
- only 5 out of 8 squad members are equipped with weapon
- Molotovs are now thrown faster
- Group Zeal - passive ability, increases all other conscripts fighting abilities when squads are close to each other
- Oorah! Ability is now free

-Conscripts as worse than grenadiers esp as the game continues, why should they cost more?
-Bad idea imo, because MG's supress 1 man and your whole squad is supressed, 6 is better.
-Molotovs are fine, just because people can micro away doesn't mean they are bad.
-Maybe
-Oorah! was free in alpha and made to cost munis because you can spam it to cap the map quicker. Leave it as it is.

Upgrades at HQ
- Weapon reserves - Global Upgrade, equip all consripts with additional 3 rifles so all members are carrying weapon, cost: 300MP 50Fuel
- Conscripts combat package - contains Molotovs and AT nades, cost: 250MP 40Fuel
- Barbed wire cutters - all engineers now have barbed wire cutters, are now able to cut every wires, cost: 100MP 20Feul

-No combat package, this is like getting nades and stickies. What if I only want one so I can still fast tech. Don't limit my ability to spend my fuel and take risks.


T1

Shock Troops
- Removed as a doctrinal unit, it's build now in T1
- Cost changed to 300MP
- New ability - Sprint later Fire-up - makes your squad sprint for a short time, Fire-up also increases resistance against suppression and when activated it removes suppression from squad, cost: free
- grenade cost reduced to 30MU
M3 Halftruck
- cost changed to 120MP and 20Fuel
- it now requires other Tier building to be build (T2, T3 or T4)
- Both guns must have reduced damage
Soviet Sniper Team
- read other Topic I've made

Possible upgrades in T1
- For the Motherland - Global upgrade, Increases Shock Troops members to 7, this 7th member will hold red flag (he will not be equipped with weapon), increases armor, damage, accuracy, replaces Sprint with Fire-up ability, cost: 150MP 30Fuel

-Shocks would be OP being available from T1, they already have the best infantry armour values, have non-uprgadeable grenades and can get PPsh on all 6 men.
-They don't need fireup, nor should it be free if they had it.
-Penals are good, just need slight health buff and should be included in abilities like conscript repair.

-Cost increase is fine.
-You are telling me I need to spend 40+50+20=110 fuel so I can make a scout car...
-The gun damage currently is a main counter the silly early flamer halftrack, but since that is likely getting nerfed, I can see why.
-Snipers should not snipe from back nor other weapons be used, flamers, PTRS etc. This then makes the scout car fine, otherwise weapons need accuracy penalties.

-Will read other topic and comment on snipers.
-This upgrade is a nice idea, but shocks are already pretty good as said before, not sure if they need to be made better.

T2

Maxim MG
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Maxim MG now deal more damage to enemy infantry
- cost changed to 220MP
- Reduce angle at which it shoots in building

Mortar team
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Cost changed to 260MP

Guards
- cost changed to 300MP
- comes already equipped with 2 PTRS, can be upgrades with 2 DP-28 and 2 SVT-40 (50MU for both upgrades)
- all weapon have significantly reduced drop rate, SVT-40 can't be dropped
- Grenade cost changed to 35 MU (i assume it's better than Shock troops nade? if now, or when both squads use same nade so cost changed to 30MU)

ZiS-3 AT
- Graphic changes, make it less toy gun (gun should be longer)
- cost changed to 310MP
- Squad members reduced to 4
- Light artillery barrage cost changed to 30MU
- Increase damage from main gun

-Like MG and Mortar changes.
-Like shocks, not sure if they need to be here. There is nothing wrong with doctrinal call in units, but if you are making a case for some infantry based light anti-tank then maybe put these guys in T1 instead of shocks/penals. That way button and AT-guns are not in the same tier.
-AT gun changes are ok, not sure if it is a damage increase but a penetration increase that is required. Health of some german tanks should be nerfed, i.e panther.

T3

T-70
- increase it's accuracy to enemy infantry
- increase damage
- make it faster
- cost changed to 240MP and 50Fuel

T34/76
- cost changed to 300MP and 75 Fuel
- remove Ram ability, instead of it, it can use Overdrive ability (for free or for 25MU)
- Infantry can now sit on T-34 armor, max 8 man sitting, one spot available, infantry sitting on T-34 would receive more damage from enemy units
- LoS should be decreased
- after researching "T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun" this tank can be upgraded with T34/85 gun at the cost of 70MU and increases LoS

SU-76M
- Moved from T4 to T3
- Cost changed to 280MP and 50 Fuel
- Penetration and damage is the same as ZiS-3 AT gun

M5 Halftruck
- cost changed to 150MP and 30 Fuel
- Quad upgrade cost changed to 80MU

T34/85
- Available in T3 as a new unit (does not replace T34/76) after researching "T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun)
- Stats match T34/76 and has increased LoS
- T34/85 gun has increased penetration, accuracy and damage to enemy tanks but have reduced accuracy to enemy infantry and slightly increased reload (by 1 second)

Possible upgrades in T3
- T34 ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun - enables you got build T34/85 and upgrade already existing T34/76 with ZiS-S-53 85 mm gun - cost 200MP and 60Fuel

-I find T-70s to be pretty good vs infantry, probably doesn't need an accuracy buff, but perhaps the damage buff, that way it can be used to hunt down flammenwerfers and late game nebel trucks.
-As long as it not a huge speed increase.
-Cost is the thing, currently T34 is easily more than 20 fuel better and I would even vouch 25 fuel better. How to make this unit worth getting without making it OP?

-SU-76 change is interesting, like it as it would be mean 1-3 pretty viable.

-Why not just make it like sherman upgun. You don't lose a lot of AI, and if you buff the T-70 that is your AI tank. Just make the upgrade make exisiting t34/76-->85s and new tanks still cost the same as the 76 but they are 85s.


T4

SU-85
- cost changed to 360MP and 75Fuel
- this ability that increases visibility is only working when tank is not moving (even can't turn)
- Reload should be slightly increased

KV-1
- cost: 440MP and 100 Fuel
- second greatest armor after IS-2 that has very slow turret and is very slow, makes a role of KT in CoH1
- has the same penetration and damage as the T34/76

Katiusza
- cost changed to 340MP and 75 Fuel
- fires all rockets at once (not 3 rockets in 4 or 5 series)

Mechanics
- new unit, 4 man squad, none is equipped (useless in combat because they can't fire and pick up weapons)
- they have advanced repair kits that one Mechanic squad match 2.5 Engineer squads repairing
- they can supervise buildings reducing build time of only tanks and AT guns
- they gain veterancy by repairing things, veterancy lvl's are increasing repairing rate, and reduce damage taken while repairing
- each squad member should have 40 HP (all other combat units have 80HP)

Possible upgrade in T4
- Repairing Mechanics - spawns near T4 3 man that will repair tanks and AT guns when they are near them, when killed they will spawn again (20 seconds for each mechanic), they dont get veterancy, you can't control them, have same repair stats as mechanics that can be build, cost: 100MU

-KV-1 is essentially a meat shield? What role does it fill?
-Mechanics are a nice idea, maybe doctrinal to replace gaurds or shocks?
10 Jun 2013, 05:40 AM
#9
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6


-KV-1 is essentially a meat shield? What role does it fill?
-Mechanics are a nice idea, maybe doctrinal to replace gaurds or shocks?


In early stage of war nothing could penetrate a KV-1, 5 KV-1's even stopped a german Panzer corps, destroying like 20 german panzers so yea, KV-1 is a meat shield
10 Jun 2013, 05:44 AM
#10
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293



In early stage of war nothing could penetrate a KV-1, 5 KV-1's even stopped a german Panzer corps, destroying like 20 german panzers so yea, KV-1 is a meat shield


early war like 39-41 then they developed guns that could pen it and it became obsolete.

also sources USSR had a knack for exaggeration.
10 Jun 2013, 07:42 AM
#11
avatar of Arashenstein

Posts: 239

how about they removed Retreat button from soviets ? more realistic ? :P i dont know what is wrong with you barton but shocktroops are already 6 men knightcross and u even want their cost to be decreased its just bizzzzzzzzzar
10 Jun 2013, 09:00 AM
#12
avatar of ArmaReborn

Posts: 52



In early stage of war nothing could penetrate a KV-1, 5 KV-1's even stopped a german Panzer corps, destroying like 20 german panzers so yea, KV-1 is a meat shield


I understand that, but what role does it play in this game? A slow more expensive t34, that has slightly better armour but still gets penned by Paks, shrecks, stugs, panthers and elefants?
10 Jun 2013, 09:37 AM
#13
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6



I understand that, but what role does it play in this game? A slow more expensive t34, that has slightly better armour but still gets penned by Paks, shrecks, stugs, panthers and elefants?


what role? it's like an early KT from CoH1
10 Jun 2013, 11:28 AM
#14
avatar of ArmaReborn

Posts: 52

KT had an 88, KV-1 has a 76...
10 Jun 2013, 12:27 PM
#15
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

KT comes Late and it's one unit per player, KV-1 can come early and you can have lot of these tanks
10 Jun 2013, 12:54 PM
#16
avatar of GeneralCH

Posts: 419

May somebody tell me the difference of T70 and T36 in tier3? As for me both tanks have the same role, just one is bigger than the other one (more armor, bigger gun).
10 Jun 2013, 18:58 PM
#17
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

su100 please or even better replace t34/85 with the high velocity 57mm gun
12 Jun 2013, 10:23 AM
#18
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1

very nice ideas, Barton!
especially the conscript upgrades and fuel cost for the scoutcar would be nice, because the Sowjet would have the choice to either make his early game as strong as it is now or to not delay his t34
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