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Does CoH1 have a future?

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6 Jul 2015, 20:35 PM
#81
avatar of GeneralCH

Posts: 419

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2015, 17:41 PMAvNY



I am a huge fan of COH1 and still prefer to play it over COH2 (which I purchased).

There are certainly improvements in COH1 over COH2 though if you only play COH1 you probably feel you don't need them.

- Reverse on vehicles.
- being able to see all your units at the same time, including their status and health.
- getting increased experience for killing vetted (higher value) units.
- Trusight. You may not be into this, but here is one change that INCREASED strategic and tactical depth to the game.
- Snow/mud. This is certainly an technological improvement. But it is very dependent on how effectively it is implemented in maps. If it adds too much complexity to balancing a map, well... use less of it.
- NO SNIPER META! (Even now that I have learned much better to use these, snipers still feel like they break the flow/feel of COH1.)

Also COH2 has battle servers with some hacking detection. Currently in COH1 maphacking just isn't an issue. Partly because the game became irrelevant so no one codes them.

This is about real improvements, not the things we don't like as COH1 fans. The test is if you were playing with these features for a long while, would you then miss them if you went back to COH1.

- There is a reverse drive script for coh1 aswell. Dunno if it is considered legit yet.
- You can see all your units, just the unit table doesnt block your screen all the time. I would prefer though to have the information about health and status on the minimap.
- It may be possible to code increased XP and EP using scar. Interesting idea
- Snow and mud is basically what low water is in coh1.
- Yeah sniper meta is a problem.

A big improvment of coh2 is the streaming options.
7 Jul 2015, 14:56 PM
#82
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2015, 17:41 PMAvNY



I am a huge fan of COH1 and still prefer to play it over COH2 (which I purchased).

There are certainly improvements in COH1 over COH2 though if you only play COH1 you probably feel you don't need them.

- Reverse on vehicles.
- being able to see all your units at the same time, including their status and health.
- getting increased experience for killing vetted (higher value) units.
- Trusight. You may not be into this, but here is one change that INCREASED strategic and tactical depth to the game.
- Snow/mud. This is certainly an technological improvement. But it is very dependent on how effectively it is implemented in maps. If it adds too much complexity to balancing a map, well... use less of it.
- NO SNIPER META! (Even now that I have learned much better to use these, snipers still feel like they break the flow/feel of COH1.)

Also COH2 has battle servers with some hacking detection. Currently in COH1 maphacking just isn't an issue. Partly because the game became irrelevant so no one codes them.

This is about real improvements, not the things we don't like as COH1 fans. The test is if you were playing with these features for a long while, would you then miss them if you went back to COH1.


- Reverse on vehicles is only an improvement for lazy players with low APM. I prefer manual reverse in CoH1 because it adds some mechanical challenge to a game that is otherwise very simple mechanically. Manual reverse is still superior in CoH2, though, since you can cancel forward momentum and control your path easier with it, so it's really a wash regardless.

- I'd argue that much of the information shown on the top right of the screen is superfluous, though being able to see suppression indicators at a glance is very nice. One big downside of this is you have to click an icon to collapse and expand that view, instead of simply hovering over an icon like you could do in CoH1. I personally prefer the CoH1 approach because it's less busy and provides only the information I feel I need, but I can understand why some people prefer the CoH2 approach. Still, like vehicle reverse, I feel it's a crutch that benefits mediocre players the most and provides very little benefit to players with proper situational awareness.

- This isn't really an improvement, just a minor change in game mechanics. I feel it's a quality change however, even though in practice its impact is very minor.

- Again, Truesight really isn't an improvement, just a change. And I'd actually argue that it's created a bunch of problems that never existed in CoH1, especially since there really aren't any dedicated scouting units in CoH2. For example, it makes blobs far more powerful because they're more difficult to scout, and therefore more difficult to react to. Sometimes depriving players of information isn't always the best approach. Still, I'm neutral on Truesight; I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than CoH1's vision system, just different.

- Awesome visual addition, fucking terrible gameplay addition. One of the worse design decisions for the British in CoH1 was giving Tommies reduced movement speed in enemy territory; why they thought adding that "feature" to maps would be a good idea is beyond me.

- Snipers were really only a problem in team games in CoH1; in 1v1s, snipers were used as they were intended to be used, as fragile and expensive but powerful support units. They also contributed greatly to the mechanical skill requirements of the game, since properly microing snipers took a lot of focus and a lot of actions. There isn't a unit in CoH2 that replicates the satisfaction of effectively microing CoH1 snipers.

The biggest improvements in CoH2 are in the server infrastructure and network backend. Something like the battle servers is a vast improvement over CoH1's pure peer-to-peer system, and allows for things like observing and server-side anti-cheat. In-game, the only real improvements I see are being able to issue capture commands directly on the minimap, being able to vault over cover, and being able to select which side of a building an MG sets up on. I haven't used the latter, but it would have been a very helpful feature to have in CoH1.
7 Jul 2015, 17:45 PM
#83
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 857



- Reverse on vehicles is only an improvement for lazy players with low APM. I prefer manual reverse in CoH1 because it adds some mechanical challenge to a game that is otherwise very simple mechanically. Manual reverse is still superior in CoH2, though, since you can cancel forward momentum and control your path easier with it, so it's really a wash regardless.

- I'd argue that much of the information shown on the top right of the screen is superfluous, though being able to see suppression indicators at a glance is very nice. One big downside of this is you have to click an icon to collapse and expand that view, instead of simply hovering over an icon like you could do in CoH1. I personally prefer the CoH1 approach because it's less busy and provides only the information I feel I need, but I can understand why some people prefer the CoH2 approach. Still, like vehicle reverse, I feel it's a crutch that benefits mediocre players the most and provides very little benefit to players with proper situational awareness.

- This isn't really an improvement, just a minor change in game mechanics. I feel it's a quality change however, even though in practice its impact is very minor.

- Again, Truesight really isn't an improvement, just a change. And I'd actually argue that it's created a bunch of problems that never existed in CoH1, especially since there really aren't any dedicated scouting units in CoH2. For example, it makes blobs far more powerful because they're more difficult to scout, and therefore more difficult to react to. Sometimes depriving players of information isn't always the best approach. Still, I'm neutral on Truesight; I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than CoH1's vision system, just different.

- Awesome visual addition, fucking terrible gameplay addition. One of the worse design decisions for the British in CoH1 was giving Tommies reduced movement speed in enemy territory; why they thought adding that "feature" to maps would be a good idea is beyond me.

- Snipers were really only a problem in team games in CoH1; in 1v1s, snipers were used as they were intended to be used, as fragile and expensive but powerful support units. They also contributed greatly to the mechanical skill requirements of the game, since properly microing snipers took a lot of focus and a lot of actions. There isn't a unit in CoH2 that replicates the satisfaction of effectively microing CoH1 snipers.

The biggest improvements in CoH2 are in the server infrastructure and network backend. Something like the battle servers is a vast improvement over CoH1's pure peer-to-peer system, and allows for things like observing and server-side anti-cheat. In-game, the only real improvements I see are being able to issue capture commands directly on the minimap, being able to vault over cover, and being able to select which side of a building an MG sets up on. I haven't used the latter, but it would have been a very helpful feature to have in CoH1.



You can argue away every benefit. But it was interesting to watch HelpingHans last week play some COH1 (albeit team games) and while he didn't complain it was clear that he missed having the elements of COH2 (unit data and reverse) that he had got used to.

Trusight certainly adds more strategic depth (something for which you have always argued) but of course mechanics (like mud and snow) should not be incorporated if they aren't working.

As to elements of team vs 1v1s... They still matter. There are still vastly more player hours spent in team games than 1v1. And there are still plenty of players, including very good ones, who didn't like the current sniper meta, else it would not have been one of the first changes in Elite Mod.
7 Jul 2015, 18:20 PM
#84
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 5

I wouldn't exactly paint Hans as the epitome of mechanical skill and situational awareness. He couldn't play CoH1 without an AHK reverse script, which is a little disappointing in a game with such tiny APM demands. He was also never a very good CoH1 player, so seeing him struggle isn't exactly the best of evidence.

Truesight actually doesn't affect strategic depth at all; what it does do is add a lot to the game's tactical depth, which is something CoH2 has far more of than CoH1. That's why, as I've always said, if your favourite part of playing CoH games is microing your units then you'll probably enjoy CoH2. But strategic depth? It adds nothing to that aside from making information more difficult to obtain, which isn't necessarily a positive when you're talking about strategy games.

Finally, the thing with team games in CoH is they've always been garbage. People thought the problems team games had in CoH1 were because of snipers and purchased vet, yet CoH2 has neither and team games are still shit. As much as people around here refuse to admit it, the simple fact is CoH as a franchise has never been designed to make team games properly competitive. Citing a change as being beneficial because it improves team games is therefore pointless, because even with these "improvements" team games are still completely trash. Are team games fun? Sure. But are they good for tournament play? No fucking way.

Also, when you look at the Elite Mod sniper changes, they actually have almost zero impact in the vast majority of competitive 1v1s. The only situation they address is mass grouping of snipers, which is extremely risky already and very rarely used in proper play between two similarly-skilled players. They eliminate a cheesy, risky playstyle, and aren't drastic enough to change how people use the unit otherwise.

The fact is, most of the improvements people cite in CoH2 are really just changes that can be seen as either good or bad depending on your perspective and priorities. I'm not the all-micro kind of player that they're targeting, so I see negatives instead of positives because most of these changes move the game further from the style that I prefer.
9 Jul 2015, 08:05 AM
#85
avatar of Dadinjo

Posts: 6

There a plenty of improvments coh2 has over coh1 and there are some things that are worse. However, the end product when you put it together is just nowehere near as fun/exiting/memorable.
9 Jul 2015, 08:24 AM
#86
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1627 | Subs: 2

CoH1 was and always will be the better game, the fun and competition will never fade from my memory, but coh2 will shine amongst mods, when the modding community brings out the diamond that is still rough right now.
9 Jul 2015, 08:56 AM
#87
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1664 | Subs: 1

the coh2 lategame is much more fun. Especially with double US you have to use combined arms all the time to be any sucessful and it feels so rewarding. Also i encounter much more diverse strategies. in coh1 it was always

Snipers / FLAK88/ Nebels
vs
Snipers / m10 rushes with warmachine / calliope
12 Jul 2015, 23:57 PM
#88
avatar of nekron

Posts: 269 | Subs: 1

the coh2 lategame is much more fun. Especially with double US you have to use combined arms all the time to be any sucessful and it feels so rewarding. Also i encounter much more diverse strategies. in coh1 it was always

Snipers / FLAK88/ Nebels
vs
Snipers / m10 rushes with warmachine / calliope


coh2 lategame is much more fun?

all units are on vet 3 (vet5) and u did nothing for it

thats bullshit

combined arms???
never seen in coh2

in coh1 it is combinet arms but not in coh2

u ever seen only snipers nebels 88? poor guy
13 Jul 2015, 06:10 AM
#89
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

Well, no matter when I join a teamspeak lobby where people are playing coh1 I only hear "scheisse" and "sniper here" or "sniper there". Alternatively there's bitching about brits being broken.

I personally dislike the sniper warfare crap a lot, and it's one of the main reasons I don't really want to play the game anymore.
However, the insta squad wiping from coh2 isn't that much better...

I just hate how all weapons which are supposed to squad wipe (arty, mortars) are mostly crap while the regular weapons kill squads all day long.
13 Jul 2015, 17:39 PM
#90
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 5

If you look at any CoH game from the perspective of 2v2+, it's always going to be shit. CoH1 team games were shit because of Brits and snipers, CoH2 team games are shit because of heavies and call-in spam. Removing things like snipers and purchased vet made 1v1s less interesting and didn't improve team games at all.

There's always going to be fucked up shit in CoH team games because the game wasn't designed for that many players.
13 Jul 2015, 22:33 PM
#91
avatar of nekron

Posts: 269 | Subs: 1

wehrmacht need the veterancy
cause american can make 4 flamer and bars

and american can vet for kill so wehrmacht need the veterancy and when wehrmacht would earn for free veterancy watch after a game how many killed ur volks and grens u would get easy and fast veterancy

so and who get killed by stupid sniper spam.... sorry get a little bit sniper micro

its easy to kill a sniper spam specially in 2v2 at

in random its a little bit harder u need to deal with the sniper spam and a brit blob and mostly u are alone cause ur mate suxs

13 Jul 2015, 22:45 PM
#94
avatar of Solver

Posts: 34

I so much love how Inverse phrases the superiority of CoH1.

I'm a long-time COH vet, and I've been on a long break from CoH - was very disappointed by CoH2 at first, and haven't played either game for over a year. Now I played CoH2, for about two months. It's far better than I remember it being in alpha or at release time, and it's actually a pretty fun game, but it's still disappointing to see how much it lacks.

After that time playing CoH2, today I went ahead and played some good old CoH1 1v1 games. What a difference. It's playing both games that truly settles which one I like more. In CoH2, I missed lots of things about CoH1. Going back to CoH1, there's very little from CoH2 that I miss. And I'm happy to see it's still possible to find matches. Not a lot of activity by any means, but the game is alive.
14 Jul 2015, 21:01 PM
#95
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

Eastern Front is preparing a steam public release in the near future. We need to replace some models and then we'll make the game accessible for everyone.

Depending on feedback we can integrate changes to improve vanilla gameplay, and provide an official patching platform for company of Heroes. Since we're faster on testing and releasing patches, this could provide a much needed update for CoH 1.
15 Jul 2015, 06:26 AM
#96
avatar of Fanatic
Patrion 14

Posts: 480 | Subs: 1

the coh2 lategame is much more fun. Especially with double US you have to use combined arms all the time to be any sucessful and it feels so rewarding. Also i encounter much more diverse strategies. in coh1 it was always


I matter of taste i guess. From what i can see in the replays and streams its about the same in CoH2 then it was in CoH1. There is a meta game with about 2 valide strategies and people tend to use this good working strategys. Maybe this impression is a result of the chances in the meta after a patch.


Snipers / FLAK88/ Nebels
vs
Snipers / m10 rushes with warmachine / calliope


It's interesting that you complain about sniper spam since you are one of the players who was never afraid of using the most powerful strategies. For example sniper spam.
While you are right about the dominance of the M10 and AWM combo i saw many different 2v2 AT WH approaches. Best example: I played thousands of hours and a 88 was never part of my or my mates macro.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2015, 17:39 PMInverse

There's always going to be fucked up shit in CoH team games because the game wasn't designed for that many players.


Some years ago I would have contradicted but now i agree. The whole game´s balance isn´t made for games with more than two people involved.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2015, 22:33 PMnekron

its easy to kill a sniper spam specially in 2v2 at


You obviously never played vs a Team who knows how to use snipers.
15 Jul 2015, 17:50 PM
#97
avatar of nekron

Posts: 269 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2015, 06:26 AMFanatic


I matter of taste i guess. From what i can see in the replays and streams its about the same in CoH2 then it was in CoH1. There is a meta game with about 2 valide strategies and people tend to use this good working strategys. Maybe this impression is a result of the chances in the meta after a patch.



It's interesting that you complain about sniper spam since you are one of the players who was never afraid of using the most powerful strategies. For example sniper spam.
While you are right about the dominance of the M10 and AWM combo i saw many different 2v2 AT WH approaches. Best example: I played thousands of hours and a 88 was never part of my or my mates macro.



Some years ago I would have contradicted but now i agree. The whole game´s balance isn´t made for games with more than two people involved.



You obviously never played vs a Team who knows how to use snipers.


i did it it was nasty but with a mate on your side easyer than alone in 2v2 rr
17 Jul 2015, 02:33 AM
#98
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 343

18 Jul 2015, 16:08 PM
#99
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4290 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2015, 17:39 PMInverse
...1. CoH2 team games are shit because of heavies and call-in spam.

2. Removing things like snipers and purchased vet ... didn't improve team games at all...


1. which already had more setbacks than in 1v1 setting. and after the july patch, it will get even more in line.

2. of course it did. seeing how caches are priced for 1v1 which makes them dirt cheap and too cost efficient in 3v3+, i think it is safe to assume that if purchasable vet were to exist in coh2, it would be priced for 1v1 setting. presuming axis get the purchasable vets, it would've made axis even stronger late game and even easier to play in these modes and i don even wanna think about that.

coh2 has 2/4 factions having snipers just like coh1 no? i have never played OF.
18 Jul 2015, 16:51 PM
#100
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2015, 17:39 PMInverse
If you look at any CoH game from the perspective of 2v2+, it's always going to be shit. CoH1 team games were shit because of Brits and snipers, CoH2 team games are shit because of heavies and call-in spam. Removing things like snipers and purchased vet made 1v1s less interesting and didn't improve team games at all.

There's always going to be fucked up shit in CoH team games because the game wasn't designed for that many players.


When was the last time you played a coh2 1v1 or 2v2? Please keep telling me more about how bad coh2 1s and 2s are. Your plethora and wealth of in game experience would go a long way to helping me understand just how superior of a game coh1 is.

Coh1 has as much of a future as the coh1 community wants it to have. Plenty of games have thrived without developer support and some have survived in spite of developers actively trying to stifle the competitive growth of the game. Unfortunately some community members would rather whine about coh2 and reminisce about the good old days instead of doing anything positive for the coh1 community.

P.S. Coh2 snipers are way more fun/fair/interesting than vcoh. You have to be careful to micro your sniper around cover instead of just LOL YOLO IM CLOAKED EVERYWHERE NO MICRO NEEDED DERP DERP coin flip oops I missed my countersnipe because fuck rng that's why.

Oh and true sight. Way better than not having it. It opens up so much tactical depth. And even increased opportunity for strategic depth by incorporating LoS blocking/hindering abilities into your strategy.
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