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russian armor

What I don't like in OKW

18 Apr 2015, 21:40 PM
#61
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8



I never said it wasn't a TD.




1. It's classified as a medium tank, and out of all the medium tanks in the game it's the least mobile. It has the acceleration of a Katyusha which is only .6 more than the USF ambulance lol.


I don't even need to say anything more.
18 Apr 2015, 21:40 PM
#62
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

It's a tank hunter friend.

It's a tank hunter

friend.

Please stop. Please stop as imagining a completely fictional term and slapping it to a unit is not only ridiculous and nonsensical but also irritating as hell.

Wikipedia
Panther was a German medium tank deployed during World War II from mid-1943 to the end of the European war in 1945. It was intended as a counter to the Soviet T-34, and as a replacement for the Panzer III and Panzer IV. While never replacing the latter, it served alongside it and the heavier Tiger I until the end of the war. While the Panther is considered one of the best tanks of World War II due to its excellent firepower and protection, it was less impressive in terms of mobility, reliability, and cost.

There you go. Now please take this, shove it to your brain and then you may continue posting.
18 Apr 2015, 21:54 PM
#63
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2015, 21:40 PMKatitof




I don't even need to say anything more.


Not all medium tanks are TDs, not all TD's are medium tanks, but the Jadgpanzer is a Tank Destroyer build on the chassis of a medium tank.

Or do you think the Elefant and Jadgtiger aren't heavy tanks lmao.

Please stop. Please stop as imagining a completely fictional term and slapping it to a unit is not only ridiculous and nonsensical but also irritating as hell.


Do you seriously not know what a Tank Hunter is? It's a turreted tank specifically built to take down enemy armor.

MAkes sense that u can shit post to 2k in just a month

Nice to know that politicians are bred fact twisters and liars. (based on ur logic, im not calling u a liar :snfPeter: )

Panther isnt a tank hunter Jager in German means hunter

Germany made Jagdpanther pacifically to kill hunt and kill tanks same with Elephant ( both have Jager in their name)

a panther's partial role was to kill tanks

Thats just like trying to say an F-18 hornet is a dedicated air intercept fighter. This makes no sense since it is a multi-role fighter


You ever get tired of being wrong? :snfBarton:


You know the German word for Paratrooper is "Parachute hunter", this does not mean they literally hunt parachutes.

Panther = Medium/Heavy designed to fight enemy tanks while being mobile, still has minor utility versus infantry

Jadgpanther = Hunter Panther

Jadgpanzer = "Hunter Tank"

Jadgtiger = Hunter Tiger

The Panther's lower caliber main gun and smaller shell made it ineffective versus enemy infantry in real life, it's purpose was fighting tanks.
18 Apr 2015, 22:06 PM
#64
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

And the Panther could take out T-34s from 3km away. KVs were easily defeated by Panzer IVs and StuGs from a km. Yet that´s not ingame.

85mms defeating KTs now? Maybe from the sides, definitely not from the front. Even Panthers with almost half the armor bounced 85mm without a problem. You are maybe referring to a Russian testing, where they would shoot some hundreds of shells on a plate until it succumbs.

In this game Russian armor gets off pretty well considering the disastrous losses they actually took. Losses so high that they would totally cripple the tank arm of any other nation.


OMFG, how did the Soviets manage to take Berlin then? Oh wait, the German's had maybe 1500 AFV's of all types to defend Berlin. The Soviets had 4x that, and the rest of the Allies had probably 40x that many AFV's making popcorn and watching from a safe distance. So who suffered "disastrous" losses? You're cherry picking historical arguments. There were 600 Tiger II's made vers 54,000 T34's (all types). Since you like historical arguments, change the cost and pop cap of the T34 to 1/90 of a Tiger II (8 manpower and 3 fuel, 1 pop cap), make half or more of the Tiger II's break down before they come into the field of battle, and then make some of the remainder run out of gas during play.

Make those changes and you'll never hear a Soviet player complain again, or simply stop with the "historical" arguments that somehow try to make the loser of both World Wars into an army of super heroes.

Here is an actual (albeit atypical) engagement of 3 T34/85's vs 3 KT's. Try to duplicate this in COH2.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/history-research-third-reich-ww2/3-king-tigers-vs-t-34-85-a-272607/
18 Apr 2015, 22:15 PM
#65
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

T-34/85 For t-34/85s againts panthers Zaloga has some very interesting things to say.

That said, historical discussions have no place in this game. It is clear in the relic patch notes that relic wants to make allies vs axis an equal fight early, mid and late game.


This of course will take a loong time to do.

18 Apr 2015, 22:17 PM
#66
avatar of REforever

Posts: 314

There's a few things I don't like about the OKW but the major one is their lack of hard hitting anti-infantry. Relic portrayed the OKW as a highly experienced and honourable Army, complete with both veteran soldiers and officers who fought in the Spanish Civil War all the way up until the Battle of Berlin, along side new recruits; my problem is that we don't see those highly effective infantry since the last patch pretty much gutted OKW's anti infantry firepower. Right now, Panzer Fusiliers are better than Obersoldaten which cost 120 MP more to build and has less firepower than an upgraded Fusilier squad. While Panzer Fusiliers are the best anti infantry the Germans can field, they're outclassed by Rifles and Paratroopers with their LMG's.
18 Apr 2015, 22:38 PM
#67
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8



Not all medium tanks are TDs, not all TD's are medium tanks, but the Jadgpanzer is a Tank Destroyer build on the chassis of a medium tank.

Or do you think the Elefant and Jadgtiger aren't heavy tanks lmao.

In CoH2?
They are not, they are heavy tank destroyers, nothing more, nothing less.
I'll let someone with a patience for special patients to explain mechanical differences between tanks and tank destroyers in coh2.

You are arguing semantics for the sake of arguing or making a save to not look like an idiot after making another bs comment that was disregarded by your own post.
18 Apr 2015, 22:38 PM
#68
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned


The Panther's lower caliber main gun and smaller shell made it ineffective versus enemy infantry in real life, it's purpose was fighting tanks.


LOL at ur attempt to Re-write history

You honestly dont think a tank crew is dumb enough to only pack AP rounds? HE rounds were created for REASON
18 Apr 2015, 23:06 PM
#69
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



LOL at ur attempt to Re-write history

You honestly dont think a tank crew is dumb enough to only pack AP rounds? HE rounds were created for REASON


It's HE rounds were less effective due to the high velocity barrel, not to mention it came with so many MG's on it specifically because it's greatest weakness was enemy infantry getting around the tank.

Things like Assault Guns were made to deal with enemy infantry and tanks, the Panther was made to focus on dealing with the plethora of Allied tanks you could find on the field the PIV couldn't deal with.

In CoH2?
They are not, they are heavy tank destroyers, nothing more, nothing less.
I'll let someone with a patience for special patients to explain mechanical differences between tanks and tank destroyers in coh2.

You are arguing semantics for the sake of arguing or making a save to not look like an idiot after making another bs comment that was disregarded by your own post.


They still are heavy tanks, but are more specialized. I don't know how insane you have to be to try and justify thinking that just because a tank is specialized suddenly doesn't mean you can't compare it to other things.

The JPIV is a medium tank, it's build on a medium tank chassis. Of call the medium TD's in the game it is the least maneuverable by design.

18 Apr 2015, 23:39 PM
#70
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2015, 22:06 PMGrumpy
OMFG, how did the Soviets manage to take Berlin then?
With overwhelming capabilities to replace men and equipment. By taking horrendous losses and being able to replace them.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2015, 22:06 PMGrumpy

Make those changes and you'll never hear a Soviet player complain again, or simply stop with the "historical" arguments that somehow try to make the loser of both World Wars into an army of super heroes.
The "loser of WW2" argument is bullshit. You are ignoring that the USA, Commonwealth, Soviet Union together formed an alliance. That´s three world powers combined. Losing a war can have a lot of causes - not only effectiveness of the army. If that was the sole factor in the equation Germany would have won. Numbers, supplies and industrial capacities win wars.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2015, 22:06 PMGrumpy

Here is an actual (albeit atypical) engagement of 3 T34/85's vs 3 KT's. Try to duplicate this in COH2.
An anecdote. In the whole picture the Russians lost multiple amounts of vehicles. No other country ever lost as many tanks.

It´s funny how you actually started the realism discussion here. Then you blame me for challenging your bullcrap about 85mms finishing off KTs frontally.
18 Apr 2015, 23:53 PM
#71
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

The "loser of WW2" argument is bullshit. You are ignoring that the USA, Commonwealth, Soviet Union together formed an alliance. That´s three world powers combined. Losing a war can have a lot of causes - not only effectiveness of the army. If that was the sole factor in the equation Germany would have won. Numbers, supplies and industrial capacities win wars.

What, do you imagine that it wouldn't have happened? That the British would have sided with Hitler against those damn dirty Commies like he imagined for so long?

Now stop with the unhelpful realism discussions in the COH2 Gameplay section, of which the two are barely recognizably similar.
19 Apr 2015, 00:15 AM
#72
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

And the Panther could take out T-34s from 3km away. KVs were easily defeated by Panzer IVs and StuGs from a km. Yet that´s not ingame.

85mms defeating KTs now? Maybe from the sides, definitely not from the front. Even Panthers with almost half the armor bounced 85mm without a problem. You are maybe referring to a Russian testing, where they would shoot some hundreds of shells on a plate until it succumbs.

In this game Russian armor gets off pretty well considering the disastrous losses they actually took. Losses so high that they would totally cripple the tank arm of any other nation.


IS-2s should be one shotting garbage krupp steel box tanks with 122mm HE rounds, spalling on the first shot and shattering into a hundred pieces

Luckily for axis players, relic secretly wishes germany won WW2 and propagates the panzer superiority myth
19 Apr 2015, 00:39 AM
#73
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2015, 00:15 AMArclyte
IS-2s should be one shotting garbage krupp steel box tanks with 122mm HE rounds, spalling on the first shot and shattering into a hundred pieces
*If they hit *If they don´t get finished off by Panther etc. with one shot themselves *If they manage to get out more than 2 shots per minute.


jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2015, 00:15 AMArclyte

Luckily for axis players, relic secretly wishes germany won WW2 and propagates the panzer superiority myth


jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2015, 00:15 AMArclyte

"myth"


------------------------------- Total
Soviet Tank losses : 83,500
German Tank losses : 25,584
Tank exchange ratio (German : Soviet) : 1:4.4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_losses_in_World_War_II

** German tank losses on all fronts, in case you wonder why the tank losses are 4.4 higher in the German - Soviets exchange ratio. See also the link.
19 Apr 2015, 01:18 AM
#74
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

If only is-2 (as well as all later USSR tanks which start to become acceptable in terms of quality) were in use before war decided under Kursk. Soviet tank crewman were heroes who fought superior german tanks without most basic training on shitty tanks, and anybody who says otherwise needs to learn some history.
19 Apr 2015, 03:04 AM
#75
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2015, 01:18 AMJadame!
If only is-2 (as well as all later USSR tanks which start to become acceptable in terms of quality) were in use before war decided under Kursk. Soviet tank crewman were heroes who fought superior german tanks without most basic training on shitty tanks, and anybody who says otherwise needs to learn some history.


You know the T-34 and KV-1 were superior to the German tanks at the start of the war right? Problem was crews had no idea how to use them and massive amounts of tactical failures.
19 Apr 2015, 04:00 AM
#76
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

With overwhelming capabilities to replace men and equipment. By taking horrendous losses and being able to replace them.

The "loser of WW2" argument is bullshit. You are ignoring that the USA, Commonwealth, Soviet Union together formed an alliance. That´s three world powers combined. Losing a war can have a lot of causes - not only effectiveness of the army. If that was the sole factor in the equation Germany would have won. Numbers, supplies and industrial capacities win wars.

An anecdote. In the whole picture the Russians lost multiple amounts of vehicles. No other country ever lost as many tanks.

It´s funny how you actually started the realism discussion here
. Then you blame me for challenging your bullcrap about 85mms finishing off KTs frontally.


No, I've said many times that the realism argument is BS and parody it some times when some retard starts one. Even after that, you cherry pick facts and go onto your next fail argument about how the losers were really better.
19 Apr 2015, 04:18 AM
#77
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



You know the T-34 and KV-1 were superior to the German tanks at the start of the war right? Problem was crews had no idea how to use them and massive amounts of tactical failures.


also the russians didn't have very many. they did have like 10000 crappy light tanks though
19 Apr 2015, 04:52 AM
#78
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



also the russians didn't have very many. they did have like 10000 crappy light tanks though


Pretty much, the insanely huge losses suffered early in the war were partially due to basically anything with armor plating being thrown into battle.

Still, the Soviet tactics changed significantly, as well as unit organization which is what helped them regain the initiative and made the counter attacks as successful as they were.
19 Apr 2015, 05:25 AM
#79
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

Let's get back on topic, chaps.
19 Apr 2015, 09:44 AM
#80
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

You know the T-34 and KV-1 were superior to the German tanks at the start of the war right? Problem was crews had no idea how to use them and massive amounts of tactical failures.


They have bad optic no suspension no radio and was very crude in all other terms. Besides, they were rare. Very rare. Russians fought pz3 and 4 with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT-7. And when they started to regain armored superiority, tigers and panthers came.
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