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A letter to Relic COH2 Game balance team

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10 Apr 2015, 00:02 AM
#201
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484


OKW doesn't have a early game firepower advantage at all.


Theory crafting. OKW early game depends on the map. Close quarter battles and narrow pathways create great opportunities for OKW to set up Kubels and Sturms. Even in early game, Jesulin did great job holding off Rifle spam in his latest Propagandacast replay. Cons a little tricky as they can get AT grenades, but by that time you should have 1 cp for MG and or 2-3 squads of Volks. You make it seem like Cons spam and Rifle spam works against OKW 90% of the time.
10 Apr 2015, 00:28 AM
#202
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Theory crafting. OKW early game depends on the map. Close quarter battles and narrow pathways create great opportunities for OKW to set up Kubels and Sturms. Even in early game, Jesulin did great job holding off Rifle spam in his latest Propagandacast replay. Cons a little tricky as they can get AT grenades, but by that time you should have 1 cp for MG and or 2-3 squads of Volks. You make it seem like Cons spam and Rifle spam works against OKW 90% of the time.


It works most of the time. A lot of the narrow and close quarter maps are terrible for the Kubel thanks to it's extremely bad pathing. Sturms are great in these urban areas, but still conspam and riflespam can work very effectively at gaining a huge early game map control advantage.

It's not "theroycrafting" if you want an example of the power of conspam, Lenny himself has posted in this very thread.
10 Apr 2015, 00:43 AM
#203
avatar of -HOI-PauL.a.D
Donator 11

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 6



if you were referring to the fight at 31:00, that was 2 guards, 1 con, and one 120mm mortar against your 1 upgrade ober. I don't know what you expected.


watch how guards deal with unit in green cover.

it perfrom better than ober
10 Apr 2015, 00:48 AM
#204
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Why? Its bigger then ambulance, but there is not a single reason why it would be more resistant then it.
Its a car, not even armroed car, its a simple, plain supply truck, its not meant to be durable or fast and its not at the moment, balance achieved.

It doesn't need any armor buffs, because its not supposed to be in rifle range. Truck pushing abuse times are over and are not coming back, get over it.


I'm not supporting truck pushing for the simple reason that trucks are free but late models of SWS were armoured with up to 15mm armour which means they were unpenetrable from front by anything less than PTRS, even .50 cal or DShK (assuming normal rounds). What's more huge part of side were tracks that were also very tough in that model. On the other hand 251 had same armour and in game it dies like fly...
10 Apr 2015, 01:02 AM
#205
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612

While I am completely against truck push, they could use a slight armor buff. Setting them up in a 1v1 out on the field is so risky now because of how pitifully short it will last against any unit.

I've watched players loose too many trucks to Soviet T1 simply because its nimble and how weak the SWS truck is. While it was an unintended feature of truck push, now its become really difficult to do what they were intended for (forward HQ buildings)
10 Apr 2015, 01:31 AM
#206
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959



watch how guards deal with unit in green cover.

it perfrom better than ober


That's correct!

Everyone knows it's unfair, considering their price difference and the time they arrive and teching required for obers.

Not only that, guards kill green cover, support weapons, etc. That's simply unfair game.
10 Apr 2015, 02:34 AM
#207
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2015, 01:31 AMAladdin


That's correct!

Everyone knows it's unfair, considering their price difference and the time they arrive and teching required for obers.

Not only that, guards kill green cover, support weapons, etc. That's simply unfair game.


this is what i thought last night when i am low on munitions can't afford to upgrade obers when they arrive on battlefield, so shocks ate my obers like snack and my HMG got owned by other players guard (it was 4v4 game). I was thinking guards and shocks should have their weapon cost munitions too.
10 Apr 2015, 05:43 AM
#208
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

While I am completely against truck push, they could use a slight armor buff. Setting them up in a 1v1 out on the field is so risky now because of how pitifully short it will last against any unit.

I've watched players loose too many trucks to Soviet T1 simply because its nimble and how weak the SWS truck is. While it was an unintended feature of truck push, now its become really difficult to do what they were intended for (forward HQ buildings)


Wow, surprisingly well put. You are correct, sir.
10 Apr 2015, 06:16 AM
#209
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 194


This is another problem with too many responses to this thread.
Paul may or may not be playing off of his status as a high ranked player, but it doesn't matter in the slightest.
This is akin to saying that "You may be a good NASCAR driver, but you don't know anything about tire grip physics." It's asinine because it accuses them without actually demonstrating that they don't know, especially because the thing relates to what they do well. Taken further, it could imply that the other person is wrong simply for having the opinions they have, and that is all evidence required to show they know nothing about said subject.

How about you stop attacking Paul and actually criticize the changes in question?

exactly. Just because you can drive a car doesn't mean you can construct one. Same goes for balance. His stat fixes won't change the game flow at all, that's pretty much the point.

Especially the suggestion of "fixing" something by making squads able to get more than one weapon upgrade is horrible. Even with the changes the game flow wouldn't change. Soviets will still spam t34-85 and IS 2s without teching, same with Ostheer etc.



You know, relic listened to the community bitching "ZOMG WE WANT ZE TANX BE CALL IN DUDES!!11" and so they swapped their original design philosophy guidelone out of the window. Which was crap. Especially since the y didnt implement the tank call in system like the people wanted it to be : like in coh 1, where you could unlock lategame tanks with manpower only.

The problem are the call in fuel costs and the fact that all the super-endgame tanks are call ins from doctrines. You can only fix this by applying the old call in unlock system that was part of CoH 2 in the early alpha.

The solution is following: t4 has a build slot in which you can construct your heavy call ins. Soviets t34-76 is replaced by T34-85 when you pick a t34-85 commander or can be built alongside, IS 2 is unlocked in t4 etc. This is the only way to fix the call in meta.

Alternatively, one could go ahead and give all heavies and super heavies to each faction by default and make every medium tank a special call in unit for midgame instead. This however, would lead to people building t4 and spamming their super heavies instead of calling them in, just because they can. Pretty much the opposite of what's happening right now.

Also, the lack of fuel-dependent teching leads to tank spam. Because you cannot spend your fuel elsewhere, you stack up large amounts of fuel, just like in coh 1 3v3+ games where players could reach critical amounts of 1000 stock fuel or even more. And to reduce the stock fuel for players, the general fuel income is comparably low and the tank fuel costs are relatively high.

That means once you have access to tanks you'll spend your fuel depot on the strongest tanks to get the most out of it, because after you spent your stacked up fuel from, let's say, minute 0 - 25 is the amount of fuel which will determine if you win or not (because strong tank allows strong assaults). After that you sort of decide if you take your opponent's fuel and get more vehicles or you loose your fuel and your enemy will spawn more vehicles.

Once you've spent your initial fuel you won't be able to field another vehicle within the next ~10 mins. Since most heavy tanks are almost as mobile as medium/light tanks, have much better combat stats and are easier to micro, all fuel spend on other vehicles/teching buildings/units is pretty much wasted fuel. I personally have lost a game some time ago, where getting the AT grenade upgrade prevented me from getting a 2nd IS 2, simply because there was no fuel left. Same with t34-76 vs. Panthers or JP IV vs. IS2.


This is just one part of the game which bothers me.

The other stuff which is stupid (like truck pushing) also cannot be fixed by changing armour values etc. Either you make it unable to do it, or you make it able to do it.

I won't go in more detail, as I think I'm wasting my time on that. The issues have been well known since months, and I already said last year, that developers design their game to be played in a certain way. If they didn't want people play CoH2 like they do now, they would've had designed the game differently.
10 Apr 2015, 08:47 AM
#210
avatar of Necrophagist

Posts: 125

Stopped reading at the point you said you 'want to truck-push'. You should be ashamed of yourself, especially being one of the top players. Shame on you.
10 Apr 2015, 14:45 PM
#211
avatar of -HOI-PauL.a.D
Donator 11

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 6

Stopped reading at the point you said you 'want to truck-push'. You should be ashamed of yourself, especially being one of the top players. Shame on you.


Well tell me why is truck push is shame?

I never tell someone is shame for that because I know how to counter.
10 Apr 2015, 15:09 PM
#212
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10627 | Subs: 9

I'd support you for truck push, Paul . After all, there was the kettenkrad push and bike push in vCoH and these still remain.

I would like to go one step further - I would like to see the return of the SWS dismantling buildings, bcs that was fun also,and quite important now, if OKW face Partisans.

But, and it is a big but, it would have to be done on the basis that you do not use the SWS to block the road across the bridge on summer S. Semois - and the only way that could presumably be achieved, would to widen the bridge, or shorten the length of the truck.




10 Apr 2015, 15:20 PM
#213
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



Well tell me why is truck push is shame?

I never tell someone is shame for that because I know how to counter.


because as long as OKW has an equal number of squads you will always lose because one squad spends all their time doing nothing and the rest can either shoot the truck, maybe killing it, and bleed, or shoot the infantry and lose because one squad isn't doing anything.
10 Apr 2015, 15:35 PM
#214
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



because as long as OKW has an equal number of squads you will always lose because one squad spends all their time doing nothing and the rest can either shoot the truck, maybe killing it, and bleed, or shoot the infantry and lose because one squad isn't doing anything.


Makes perfectly good sense.
10 Apr 2015, 15:37 PM
#215
avatar of -HOI-PauL.a.D
Donator 11

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 6

I'd support you for truck push, Paul . After all, there was the kettenkrad push and bike push in vCoH and these still remain.

I would like to go one step further - I would like to see the return of the SWS dismantling buildings, bcs that was fun also,and quite important now, if OKW face Partisans.

But, and it is a big but, it would have to be done on the basis that you do not use the SWS to block the road across the bridge on summer S. Semois - and the only way that could presumably be achieved, would to widen the bridge, or shorten the length of the truck.







SWS dismantling buildings ---- which is okey but need to be more harder to do that.

shorten the length of the truck--- agree.


THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT.
13 Apr 2015, 22:57 PM
#217
avatar of shadowwada

Posts: 137



This is so blatantly wrong I don't even know were to start. Conspam is powerful because it counters the Kubel and sturms. Sturms can't DPS/kill you if they can't close the distance between you before losing their models and the Kuvel isn't hard to overwhelm when you have Oorah!

Riflespam can be semi-less effective due to not having the numbers that Conspam does, but early nades help immensely. OKW early game by design is anemic, they start with the least MP of any faction and the least capping power.

EDIT: And deal with maxims to a point? Christ dude this is cringe worthy, your only going to be able to beat his maxims if he fucks up microing them. OKW doesn't have a early game firepower advantage at all.


Allies have the early game advantage where they can expand all over the map while Axis has to slowly expand outwards. The big weakness of axis early game is their lack of early game AT. USSR scout car & USF utility car can bully for a while before axis is able to get AT to counter.
13 Apr 2015, 23:05 PM
#218
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



Allies have the early game advantage where they can expand all over the map while Axis has to slowly expand outwards. The big weakness of axis early game is their lack of early game AT. USSR scout car & USF utility car can bully for a while before axis is able to get AT to counter.

OKW can immediately build an AT gun. A patch ago I would have said "But it probably doesn't matter since the aim time largely prevents it from hitting anything light vehicle that is actually moving", but that is fortunately no longer the case.
14 Apr 2015, 01:10 AM
#219
avatar of HelpingHans
Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 1838 | Subs: 17

Just going to throw my two cents in here to defend truck pushing.

First of all I've started to try Starcraft 2 recently and I've learned that there's a thing called cheese. This is where one player goes for attempt to end the game quickly by attacking their opponent first. This is usually an all in tactic as if it fails you will be considerably behind.

Truck pushing is a form of this cheese yes but that being said it is still something that should be allowed within the game and shouldn't be considered a game breaking mechanic. The truck is incredibly slow already and only acts as a scouting unit in the first few minutes of a game. Players that take the risk to use this unit in combat to win engagements should be rewarded if they pull it off correctly. Let me remind you that if the truck is destroyed this set's back the OKW player considerably for obvious reasons.

The truck push can be effectively countered by just simply not engaging in the first place. Secondly as both allied factions can field a light vehicle in order to quickly counter this unit. Those being the M3 and WC. Furthermore both factions can have at grenades at the start of the game with the upgrade from the soviet HQ and vetted rifle from the rifle company.
14 Apr 2015, 01:14 AM
#220
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

Just going to throw my two cents in here to defend truck pushing.

First of all I've started to try Starcraft 2 recently and I've learned that there's a thing called cheese. This is where one player goes for attempt to end the game quickly by attacking their opponent first. This is usually an all in tactic as if it fails you will be considerably behind.

Truck pushing is a form of this cheese yes but that being said it is still something that should be allowed within the game and shouldn't be considered a game breaking mechanic. The truck only is incredibly slow already and only acts as a scouting unit in the first few minutes of a game. Players that take the risk to use this unit in combat to win engagements should be rewarded if the pull it off correctly. Let me remind you that if the truck is destroyed this set's back the OKW player considerably for obvious reasons.

The truck push can be effectively countered by avoiding attempts to push by not engaging in the first place. Secondly as both allied factions can field a light vehicle in order to quickly counter this unit. Those being the M3 and WC. Furthermore both factions can have at grenades at the start of the game with the upgrade from the soviet HQ and vetted rifle from the rifle company.


i haven't faced truck pushing since the patch but before the patch it was almost no risk, huge reward.

further, the counters from USF are either doctrinal or time (not available for that first truck push) dependent. the soviets do have the m3 in t1 but they generally make the tiering decision during loading, before they know if they're facing a truck push. if they always assume they're facing a truck push from OKW and always go t1 then truck pushing effectively locks out half their starting options.

additionally, if you choose to counter truck pushing by not engaging you are giving the OKW player HUGE control over any important point in the game for the first minute or so. on some maps, like road to karkov, they can camp your cut off, leaving you with two points to cap.
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