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OKW, the root of most balance issues?

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4 Dec 2014, 07:57 AM
#81
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



Raketwerfer is the worst AT gun if you try to use it as a PaK-40

But as I use it as what it is and play to its strengths I really love it


Not sure what you mean by usig it in other way than " a pak 40". It has a horrible aiming time which doesn't recommend it to be kept to close to your target. It gets torn to pieces by a medium tank if properly attacked. It has an embarassing range and a more embarassing damage. The only "good" usage of this unit is keeping it in a house or something to guard a crossroad or a deployed truck.... or together with your volks blob if you are an A-move lover. But this is not what an AT should do. No other AT gun has to be used in this way.
4 Dec 2014, 08:44 AM
#82
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Raketenwerfer is not worth more than 200 mp in current state.
4 Dec 2014, 09:00 AM
#83
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467



Where did I write anything about nerfing?

Switching KT woth PZ IV is a nerf?
LMG for 90 is not a nerf since Obers will act same way after upgrade.
Stormpio with Schrecks and Volks with SMGs and Panzerfaust are nerfs?

Please, show me where I wanted to nerf something. Ijust pointed bad design features in my opinion.


Yes those are all exactly nerfs.

4 Dec 2014, 09:24 AM
#84
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

Raketenwerfer is not worth more than 200 mp in current state.


There is nothing wrong with the raketenwerfer apart from it's ready-aim time. When I play OKW, I like to get at least 2 raketenwerfers for the lategame. They have good DPS, and usually don't miss vs. armor. That said, they are not paks, or zis guns. They are support AT, not true AT. They must be used to support true AT, such as a jagdpanzer 4 or panther. Whenever I play USF, I always make sure to grab a raketen if I spot it decrewed. Why? because its mobile nature makes it great to support infantry advances and the like, while the retreat ability allows you to retain veterancy much more easily.
4 Dec 2014, 09:37 AM
#85
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Yes those are all exactly nerfs.



I think we have different understandig what nerf is. For me its making unit less powerful. Here You can call nerf only 1 thing. Volks without schrecks (yet still you have something for exchange so its hardly nerf). I would rather say its a buff since you still have at inf and ai cheap inf. But if you are schrecks blob lover, then yes, its a nerf.
Other things are about changing design rather than nerfing.
4 Dec 2014, 09:45 AM
#86
avatar of Casparitus

Posts: 154 | Subs: 2

Raketen werfer in T0, cheap, can retreat(!) and sit in buildings. Plz buff......................................................
4 Dec 2014, 10:11 AM
#87
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Raketen werfer in T0, cheap, can retreat(!) and sit in buildings. Plz buff......................................................


A raketen buff cannot come without taking away something of these.
4 Dec 2014, 11:11 AM
#88
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

Raketen werfer in T0, cheap, can retreat(!) and sit in buildings. Plz buff......................................................


If you think crew weapons retreat without a problem, you are not playing this game.

It's not cheap either and dies to vehicles very easily due to lack of shield on other AT guns.
4 Dec 2014, 13:05 PM
#89
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

IF the rak is bad, think about the little doctrinal at gun. Yeah, who cares :D
4 Dec 2014, 13:28 PM
#90
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

IF the rak is bad, think about the little doctrinal at gun. Yeah, who cares :D


No one, because it's doctrinal. Doctrinal between 20 other doctrines (many of them being alot better than doctrines that involve it). Not essential for the gameplay at the moment it's available. Not the only weapon AT team available for soviets at the moment it can be called.
4 Dec 2014, 14:39 PM
#91
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



at the highest of skill levels i believe allies have the edge, in 2v2s atleast, for various reasons.



Is it too much to ask that it be possible for those who are not the top 100 (or 50 or 20) to have a chance at being competitive with the one faction some of us bought in order to play the game?

We know that for those who "can't" they don't just not have the edge, the balance is tipped heavily against them. There are simply some modes you will not have a chance to win and others in which you will struggle mightily.

For most USF it will either be a win at 10 minutes (is that fun or will outplaying the other now feel like a stomp) or a slow frustrating slide to a loss as the game progresses. people love to feel like that came back from behind... OKW is practically designed by psychologists to give that "I am so great" feeling where most of that feeling actually was part of the design.

I predicted that once they fixed the Kubel we would end up back at the point of complaining about late-game. We didn't for a while because the kubel meant most didn't get to the late game.
4 Dec 2014, 14:48 PM
#92
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2014, 14:39 PMAvNY



Is it too much to ask that it be possible for those who are not the top 100 (or 50 or 20) to have a chance at being competitive with the one faction some of us bought in order to play the game?

We know that for those who "can't" they don't just not have the edge, the balance is tipped heavily against them. There are simply some modes you will not have a chance to win and others in which you will struggle mightily.

For most USF it will either be a win at 10 minutes (is that fun or will outplaying the other now feel like a stomp) or a slow frustrating slide to a loss as the game progresses. people love to feel like that came back from behind... OKW is practically designed by psychologists to give that "I am so great" feeling where most of that feeling actually was part of the design.

I predicted that once they fixed the Kubel we would end up back at the point of complaining about late-game. We didn't for a while because the kubel meant most didn't get to the late game.


Unless the all factions are equal, that would be impossible to achieve.

Look at Starcraft I : Probably the most successful and balanced RTS ever, as recognized by many.

Zerg had Lurkers to counter Terran infantry blob, but "pro" players microed the infantry to avoid incoming aoe shots and effectively countered its counters. Same for vultures countering dragoons and mutalisks counteringmarine blob.

You see, the developer intent will never be the same for the actual gaming scene.

And you can never make everyone happy. But seeing as how omgpop can achieve 91% win rate with USA, even among the best players.....

The balance will always be top-down, rather than the other way around. It's usually better for the game itself.

When a developer tries to balance the game for the average gamer, disasters like Tekken 4 happen.

The developer of this long-running fight game series actually mentioned that "balancing based on the feedback of the average layman is detrimental to the game".
4 Dec 2014, 15:35 PM
#93
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

its also up to the player themselves to learn the game and mechanics.
4 Dec 2014, 15:40 PM
#94
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144

its also up to the player themselves to learn the game and mechanics.


You are right. Let's all play OKW only. What?
4 Dec 2014, 15:43 PM
#95
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186



You are right. Let's all play OKW only. What?


Yeah.. you go do that and let us know how you've fared... also let me know when you're going to play, so I can queue as allies.
4 Dec 2014, 15:47 PM
#96
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Raketenwerfer is not worth more than 200 mp in current state.


Following your logic, Soviets should be getting free M-42 with no pop cap every cooldown after choosing doctrine its in.
4 Dec 2014, 15:57 PM
#97
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

For me the biggest issue with OKW when I play 1v1 as Soviet is that T-34 is not a threat for Volks with Shreks. It's quite the opposite. A salvo from 2 Volks squads will drop it down yo half health forcing a retreat because you never know if there is no roketenwerfen ready to quickly finish it of nearby. The range on Shreks is on same as well so you can engage at Max distance without even risking Volks. I'd star with long range accuracy adjustment on OKW shrecks and see how it goes.


The other issue I have is that it's too difficult to punish OKW player for placing his base Flacktruck too forward. This thing can take on any allied medium tank alone. I think flaktruck penetration could be adjusted so its stops the infantry but can't threaten medium tanks.
4 Dec 2014, 16:06 PM
#98
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186



Following your logic, Soviets should be getting free M-42 with no pop cap every cooldown after choosing doctrine its in.


If Zis-3 was removed from the roster I guess your logic makes sense?
4 Dec 2014, 16:10 PM
#99
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

For me the biggest issue with OKW when I play 1v1 as Soviet is that T-34 is not a threat for Volks with Shreks. It's quite the opposite. A salvo from 2 Volks squads will drop it down yo half health forcing a retreat because you never know if there is no roketenwerfen ready to quickly finish it of nearby. The range on Shreks is on same as well so you can engage at Max distance without even risking Volks. I'd star with long range accuracy adjustment on OKW shrecks and see how it goes.


The other issue I have is that it's too difficult to punish OKW player for placing his base Flacktruck too forward. This thing can take on any allied medium tank alone. I think flaktruck penetration could be adjusted so its stops the infantry but can't threaten medium tanks.


destroying a schwerer HQ requires a coordinated and patient attack. you cant just rush into it with mediums and hope to kill it. be intentional with what youre going to do.
wether it be sniping it with jacksons, barraging it with 120mm mortars, attacking out of range with at guns while machine guns push off any counter attack, or swarming it with multiple medium tanks, you have to be intentional in destroying it.
the cheapest way to do it is using two 120mm mortars, using at guns + machine guns/infantry is also effective, and the fastest way is probably attacking with mass armor, but also the riskiest since you could possibly lose a tank if there are supporting anti-tank next to the schwerer.
4 Dec 2014, 16:11 PM
#100
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7



You are right. Let's all play OKW only. What?


what are you talking about
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