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russian armor

Jagdtiger

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21 Nov 2014, 13:47 PM
#61
avatar of TomOfAction
Benefactor 341

Posts: 84

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 18:44 PMCassius
Imo it was good that the ignoring of shotblockers was removed. But it didn´t got anything in exchange. I think now the stunning needs to go OR the price needs to go down.


I second your feedback – I feel that Jagdtiger required a slight nerf, but this went a little too far. I think reducing the price of the Jadtiger to 250 - 260 fuel and something along the lines of 640 manpower, would more than justify all of the recent modifications to it. But, I'm open to other, (if possible) reasonable alternatives if anybody else has something they'd like to input.
21 Nov 2014, 14:02 PM
#62
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



I second your feedback – I feel that Jagdtiger required a slight nerf, but this went a little too far. I think reducing the price of the Jadtiger to 250 - 260 fuel and something along the lines of 640 manpower, would more than justify all of the recent modifications to it. But, I'm open to other, (if possible) reasonable alternatives if anybody else has something they'd like to input.


And why would it cost comparably to ele while having vastly superior stats?

Its perfectly fine as it is, no longer doomsday machine for armor, needs positioning and at least some basic skill and is still the best TD in game.
21 Nov 2014, 14:43 PM
#63
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 14:02 PMKatitof


And why would it cost comparably to ele while having vastly superior stats?

Its perfectly fine as it is, no longer doomsday machine for armor, needs positioning and at least some basic skill and is still the best TD in game.


I think the cost is not really comparable due to the reduced fuel income. No one will build a JT in 1v1, I guess, so OKW will probably have a Wehr mate who can build fuel caches, anyway.

The JT is still much more expensive than the Elefant though. As OKW you can't really afford more than 1 or 2 light vehicles, otherwise you'll get the JT too late or not at all.

The JT now requires more micro, I have no problem with that, but piercing through all kind of obstacles was its most important feature that has now been taken away. It was OP in team games but the price should be reduced a bit and the "crew stun" has to be removed if it didn't happen already.
21 Nov 2014, 14:56 PM
#64
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned


. I think reducing the price of the Jadtiger to 250 - 260 fuel and something along the lines of 640


uh.... NO!
21 Nov 2014, 15:42 PM
#65
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

All the whiners aside, I believe the Jagdtiger is pretty useless, especially on big games where it is easily shot down by B4s and P-47s.

And jagdtiger is easily stunlocked to death without much effort- just spray a katusa into the vicinity, making all supporting infantry retreat, then rush in with T-3485s.

Heck, for the same fuel cost T-3476s can destroy the jagdtiger after retreating the infantry support with ease.

Panther is IMO a much better investment of fuel with the speed and flexibility.


I'd call Jagdtiger balanced if one of the following happened :

a) Switch shells like ISU-152
b) Manpower/Fuel Cost/Popcap reduced
c) Stunlock removed + tunnelvision ability
21 Nov 2014, 16:01 PM
#66
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

Wow, it got its main feature removed and not a slight price reduction, wtf
21 Nov 2014, 16:15 PM
#67
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Wall hacking was the main feature? Man. There are some entitled privileges out there.
21 Nov 2014, 16:17 PM
#68
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Wow, it got its main feature removed and not a slight price reduction, wtf


It was not removed, it was nerfer. That's a big difference.
Thinking like that would lead us to cost reduction of Shocks, Tiger Ace, IL-2 and many other units.
It was just reduced to the level where it should be.
If ability is broken, cost reduction shouldnot follow.
The only one thing I would change is pircing shot. Make it FREE but with 45s cooldown.
21 Nov 2014, 16:23 PM
#69
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701



It was not removed, it was nerfer. That's a big difference.
Thinking like that would lead us to cost reduction of Shocks, Tiger Ace, IL-2 and many other units.
It was just reduced to the level where it should be.
If ability is broken, cost reduction shouldnot follow.
The only one thing I would change is pircing shot. Make it FREE but with 45s colddown.



wut are you talking bro? the ability to shoot trough everything was REMOVED not nerfed. (I dont care about veteran crap).
21 Nov 2014, 16:31 PM
#70
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2




wut are you talking bro? the ability to shoot trough everything was REMOVED not nerfed. (I dont care about veteran crap).


You did not get my point. Maybe I was not enough accurate.

If something is removed you can get something in return. For example, Relic removes vet1 Jackson ability but in return main penetration is increased.
If something is nerfed, it's nerfed and you get nothing in return because this nerfed thing should not take palce since beggining.

And it was nerfed because you still can do it but for ammo (but it should be free with CD)
________
And like G4bb4_G4nd4lf said, it''s nerf to JT. It was removed but it's nerf for a unit.
21 Nov 2014, 16:45 PM
#71
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658



You did not get my point. Maybe I was not enough accurate.

If something is removed you can get something in return. For example, Relic removes vet1 Jackson ability but in return main penetration is increased.
If something is nerfed, it's nerfed and you get nothing in return because this nerfed thing should not take palce since beggining.


Piercing shots got removed. That's a nerf to the Jagdtiger. A pretty significant one. To compensate that loss, a small rice reduction seems reasonable.

Your idea of making the concrete piercing round free with a longer cooldown seems fine to me as well. That would make any other change irrelevant.
21 Nov 2014, 16:48 PM
#72
avatar of keithsboredom

Posts: 117

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 16:15 PMNapalm
Wall hacking was the main feature? Man. There are some entitled privileges out there.


this. When you want to lol every time your own unit fires it's pretty obvious there's something wrong.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 15:42 PMRupert
All the whiners aside, I believe the Jagdtiger is pretty useless, especially on big games where it is easily shot down by B4s and P-47s.

And jagdtiger is easily stunlocked to death without much effort- just spray a katusa into the vicinity, making all supporting infantry retreat, then rush in with T-3485s.

Heck, for the same fuel cost T-3476s can destroy the jagdtiger after retreating the infantry support with ease.


You are making A LOT of assumptions here. First off as stated by many people the game really isn't balanced for 3v3 or 4v4; I doubt it was ever really intended to be and I doubt it ever will be so not to be dismissive but I feel like what happens in "big games" is a moot point, no offense meant.
You're envisioning some rather specific scenarios here; I could shoot specific holes in these scenarios but it's probably more constructive to simply say these are just a few possibilities and very often things play out very different from what you are describing.

21 Nov 2014, 17:04 PM
#73
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 16:15 PMNapalm
Wall hacking was the main feature? Man. There are some entitled privileges out there.


Wallhacking is the privilege of vet 1 Kubels :D
21 Nov 2014, 17:29 PM
#74
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186



this. When you want to lol every time your own unit fires it's pretty obvious there's something wrong.



You are making A LOT of assumptions here. First off as stated by many people the game really isn't balanced for 3v3 or 4v4; I doubt it was ever really intended to be and I doubt it ever will be so not to be dismissive but I feel like what happens in "big games" is a moot point, no offense meant.
You're envisioning some rather specific scenarios here; I could shoot specific holes in these scenarios but it's probably more constructive to simply say these are just a few possibilities and very often things play out very different from what you are describing.



September 24 Patch :

OKW Economy
The previous increase in munition rate for the OKW significantly increased their potency within 3v3 and 4v4 environments to a point where it became problematic. This compounded a number of issues which resulted in the faction significantly over performing relative to its counter parts. Until we are better able to identify and resolve those compounding factors, we are going to revert the munition change to a lower value.

Resources
Munition rate from 100% to 80%


"Big Games" moot point, you say?

Well, "moot point" you put it, seems like a reason to nerf OKW in 1v1 as well by Relic it seems.

And the scenario isn't that far off. Assuming at a equal player skill (which would give map control in favor of the allies), by the time OKW is able to call-in a Jagdtiger the Allies should have 500+ equivalent fuel in terms of unit value.
21 Nov 2014, 17:31 PM
#75
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 16:15 PMNapalm
Wall hacking was the main feature? Man. There are some entitled privileges out there.



Because 290 fuel + 60 munition + endless crew stun which absolutely FORBIDs it to tank anything despite its armor

were all balancing measures corresponding to the piercing shot ability.


Now the weight is off one side, it should be lifted off the other side of the scale as well.

Common sense, I believe.
21 Nov 2014, 17:33 PM
#76
avatar of Ace of Swords

Posts: 219

The super high cost of the jagtiger was justified by it's ability to fire through obstacles, now it doesn't anymore and it's cost is too high, consider that the ele is 245 fuel and it's almost never seen, the jag is 290 fuel + the 30% and in addition requires an ammunition cost of 60 to be able to be as mobile as an ele.
21 Nov 2014, 17:46 PM
#77
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

It has the greatest range out of any armor, plus more.

21 Nov 2014, 17:46 PM
#78
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

Well it's worse than the Elefant now.

+15 range
-slower (need upgrade first)
-more expensive (most expensive tank in game)
-harder to babysit, since you can't faust enemy medium tanks or hide it behind a wall of paks
-a loss is a devastating set back, while losing an Elefant is not that troublesome since you usually use it in synergy with p4s or panthers
-- can't spot for itself
-- commander can't counter b4
---- get's stunned by every shot

Only situation I could think of using it would be against 2-4 ISUs in team games. With the new min rage of the ISU I don't think even that is needed if you could use just 2 panthers for the same job.

It needs a price reduction and the stun removed, otherwise this unit is dead.
21 Nov 2014, 17:49 PM
#79
avatar of MorgolKing

Posts: 148

What changes were implemented? I thought only the ability was changed and nothing else ???

Edit: It appears it was the ability to shoot through terrain, which I think is fine but only if you increase the range significantly or decrease the cost significantly...otherwise it would be a waste to spend 290 fuel on the JT.

21 Nov 2014, 17:58 PM
#80
avatar of keithsboredom

Posts: 117

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2014, 17:46 PMNapalm
It has the greatest range out of any armor, plus more.



any chance you could point in the direction of how you got these raw numbers, I know there is coh2stats.org but this appears to be from an excel file
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