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Open Beta first impressions

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22 Oct 2014, 14:30 PM
#61
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 14:28 PMRomeo
Have any of the people claiming ISU-152 and Jagdtiger were over-nerfed actually tried using them yet? Seems like hyperbole to me.


Queenratchet
22 Oct 2014, 14:34 PM
#62
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

Ok, after playing some matches, I must say ISU/Jagdtiger were hit really, really bad with the nerf stick.
I don't have a problem with manually targeting units, but they don't hit anything reliably now, since they can't target units directly.

It's like they removed the ability to shoot. All the can do now is attack ground. That doesn't work against anybody with proper micro since you can simply move your units all the time and avoid being hit at all.

I would've found it much better if they can't auto shoot, but rather you need to click for every shot.

They are working like sturmtigers now.
Hitting tanks with sturmtigers is impossible against good opponents, since units that are moving are not tracked.

I rather fear is possible to take out ISU with a single puma out now or a jagdtiger with a single wolverine.


And not a single thing of value was lost.

As I've said, I'd much rather these units be worthless than ridiculously OP.
22 Oct 2014, 14:34 PM
#63
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 14:28 PMNinjaWJ


WEll I think ISU is the main incentive for players to go towards Mechanized. It is one of the few doctrines with mark target. Although I think bombing strike will be a lot more effective now?

I think the IS-2 is fairly weak against armor, especially those KTs and JTs. Hopefully the nontracking thing isn't a bug. I am worried this will pigeon players into even lesser commanders (those with shocks and IS2).


IS-2 is surprisingly good against the KT, and expect to see less JT to counter it. Any commander with shocks has always been good, and my roster usually consists of Lend Lease, Counterattack tactics, and the IS-2 shocks and incendiary strikes. Call ins as usual, but the ISU always felt like cheating when i build T2, spend no fuel until the CP comes, and then call in ISU after ISU which counters near all.
22 Oct 2014, 14:38 PM
#64
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

I'm wondering what will the bar spam do to Wehrmacht
22 Oct 2014, 14:39 PM
#65
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070



IS-2 is surprisingly good against the KT, and expect to see less JT to counter it. Any commander with shocks has always been good, and my roster usually consists of Lend Lease, Counterattack tactics, and the IS-2 shocks and incendiary strikes. Call ins as usual, but the ISU always felt like cheating when i build T2, spend no fuel until the CP comes, and then call in ISU after ISU which counters near all.


That is kinda what I was talking about. Soviets already lack good, competitive commanders, now the manual target thing is going to turn people off more. Now im guessing more people will move to IS2 doctrines = forcing players into a specific doctrine


don't get me wrong, I am happy Relic is doing something about these units. I just don't think a general blanket change on them will do the trick. I think both units will need their own specific rebalance
22 Oct 2014, 14:46 PM
#66
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 14:23 PMNinjaWJ


I disagree. The matchup was okay versus Ost, but what are you going to do when those KTs and JgdTs show up?


For better or worse numbers still count for allies. There is no one trick but several units working together are quite viable to counter the KT and JT. I see the JT being strong against an army of few heavy tanks. Whilst its counter would be several mediums.
22 Oct 2014, 14:46 PM
#67
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 14:28 PMRomeo
Have any of the people claiming ISU-152 and Jagdtiger were over-nerfed actually tried using them yet? Seems like hyperbole to me.


ive used JT, (not isu cus for some reason i dont own vanilla game in beta) It needs to much micro. this is fine. but the price tag is not justified
22 Oct 2014, 14:52 PM
#68
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



ive used JT, (not isu cus for some reason i dont own vanilla game in beta) It needs to much micro. this is fine. but the price tag is not justified


If you mean by fine that they won't hit moving targets...
22 Oct 2014, 14:58 PM
#69
avatar of Mr +

Posts: 112

ISU is the only real good counter to OP axis infantry
22 Oct 2014, 15:03 PM
#71
avatar of Mr +

Posts: 112

you should change in Gidiot....
22 Oct 2014, 15:18 PM
#72
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

Before saying the ISU & JT are overnerfed, play some games and think about the fact that they aren't that easy to handle now. Pretty normal, these units have a huge impact on the game so they should be harder to handle.


Yeah agree with this, I like the idea of the changes. It's like WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT MICRO RESPONSIBILITY.

But still no changes to early game vehicles :( Only Kubel nerf :(
22 Oct 2014, 15:28 PM
#73
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

The Sturmtiger seldom sees light because it is not very effective except in niche cases (brain dead blobber, static fortified positions) and Stuka does better even in most of these cases.

I love the unit and try to build it as often as I can. Since the range nerf, it cannot shoot at infantry without its aim time being seen, which had a huge effect on its effectiveness.

I haven't actually played the beta yet, so this is armchair generaling but if the ultraheavies are now indeed underperforming and not just suffering from acute L2P, maybe their scatter could be reduced and AoE (for ISU) and damage (for JT) increased. It is only fair - they will be shooting much less now. When that ISU hits my bunkers I want to FEEL it. (I am a masochist).
Hey I'm a masochist too. I prefer getting my squads wiped though.

Tried the new BAR. Destroys the bot's JLI in short time. The M2HB gunner stops turning around to adjust 5 degrees now. <444>3
22 Oct 2014, 15:32 PM
#74
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



But still no changes to early game vehicles :( Only Kubel nerf :(


What nerf? It still can lock down Allies in first 1-4mins. I would rather see Kubel as mobile-chasing unit than mobile suppression unit or leave it as it is but switch with MG and make it 0 CP doctrinal.

Why Elephant did not suffer nerf like ISU and JT?
22 Oct 2014, 15:43 PM
#75
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070



For better or worse numbers still count for allies. There is no one trick but several units working together are quite viable to counter the KT and JT. I see the JT being strong against an army of few heavy tanks. Whilst its counter would be several mediums.


Yes in theory Allies have the numbers advantage. It is possible yes but check out this comment by Relic

"Allies are more difficult to play as a result of their high unit count and low power ratio per unit. For example, instead of heaving one super heavy Tiger, the USF have two or three Sherman Tanks. In theory, the USF player possesses a relatively similar army value; in practice the execution of this army requires greater coordination. Short term, our goal is to target a few problematic units or upgrades to better align the factional balance. Long term, we will be addressing faction scaling, how the power of a faction compounds into the late game, and difficulty of play related to Allied army composition.

That said, other factors will likely be added to that list as we further investigate some of the challenges players are facing."


Although USF and SOviets have that numerical advantage, playing well with that amount of medium tanks requires a lot more micro then controlling one Axis heavy. People can say "L2P!!!" all they want, but I don't see it as balanced if it requires more effort to achieve the power advantage/equality as smaller Axis armies
and
22 Oct 2014, 15:55 PM
#76
avatar of and

Posts: 140

The input delay reduction is the major point for me in this patch. I tried to bring attention to this problem for years almost.

For a long time I basically thought I was almost alone with my concern for this and that Relic did not care about the input lag. I'm very positively surprised, but I don't get why Relic could not acknowledge that this was something they were aware of and working on.
and
22 Oct 2014, 15:56 PM
#77
avatar of and

Posts: 140

Now they also mention the problems with the US late game in the changelog, but what did they actually do besides making some heavy tanks unusable? (the wrong way to go about it imo)

I guess they leave some of the important stuff for "long term", but does that mean later in this beta or in later patches? Tbh I was expecting larger changes for the late game this time around...
22 Oct 2014, 16:04 PM
#78
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647



IS-2 is surprisingly good against the KT, and expect to see less JT to counter it.


what, the kt eats is2 alive in a brawl. there's almost no contest here. more hp and much more frontal armor. i dont see how the is2 works against the kt.
22 Oct 2014, 16:42 PM
#79
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 15:56 PMand
Now they also mention the problems with the US late game in the changelog, but what did they actually do besides making some heavy tanks unusable? (the wrong way to go about it imo)

I guess they leave some of the important stuff for "long term", but does that mean later in this beta or in later patches? Tbh I was expecting larger changes for the late game this time around...


Well at least they acknowledge that there is a problem. THis is the first step. I am optimistic that good changes are coming.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 16:04 PMwongtp


what, the kt eats is2 alive in a brawl. there's almost no contest here. more hp and much more frontal armor. i dont see how the is2 works against the kt.


exactly

22 Oct 2014, 16:48 PM
#80
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2014, 16:04 PMwongtp


what, the kt eats is2 alive in a brawl. there's almost no contest here. more hp and much more frontal armor. i dont see how the is2 works against the kt.


Still has the highest chance of all Allied tanks of surviving...

But something that looks pretty stupid on paper:

KT has faster reload than IS-2.
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