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russian armor

Why Ostheer is in a bad spot

3 Aug 2014, 16:50 PM
#21
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680



Grenadiers with LMG's are quite viable imho


Yeah, they are. But comes a bit late as the first few minutes are quite hard on every map.
3 Aug 2014, 17:17 PM
#22
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

I disagree with your assessment of maps. Maps with a ton of buildings tend to work well with axis support weapons and flamers. Minsk is just asking for you to turtle up with mg's and paks...

What 1v1's are you playing where an ISU is facing off against an Elefant?

As for Commanders, I think Ostheer has plenty of choice it just depends on how much you want to rely on specific units rather than have a well rounded arsenal. For example, the only paid doctrine I use is the Ostruppen one.

Ostheer is more defensive early on, but so what? They're meant to play like an immovable rock. That's why three of the four units they can build out of t1 are support units.

3 Aug 2014, 17:38 PM
#23
avatar of Tetley

Posts: 187

Main issues i see are the over reliance on the tiger, tiering costs especially T4 and units that either cost too much or are available too late.
3 Aug 2014, 18:20 PM
#25
avatar of TheMightyCthulu

Posts: 127

Ostheer is hard to play as, but the Assault Grenadiers allow you to play aggressive early if you choose them. I enjoy the more methodical, combined arms approach of the Wehrmacht.
3 Aug 2014, 18:53 PM
#26
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

Gren spam to LMG's to Panzer 4's f***s everything up....only problem I have is keeping Grens(infantry in general) alive against Riflemen,those guys need a nerf in their long range DPS
3 Aug 2014, 20:30 PM
#27
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

-Everyone agrees Stalingrad sucks.
-With Meta call in (since forever), yeah you are just better with a Tiger doctrine. Specially against US.
-ISU a problem on 1v1 after patch ?
-Yeah, i don´t think we will see for a time a tweak of mp/fuel on teching.
4 Aug 2014, 06:56 AM
#28
avatar of bämbabäm

Posts: 246

@Dullahan/elchino: I haven't faced an ISU in 1v1 on Minsk or Kharkov recently, because I veto them :P
Don't you think ISU is a serious problem on such narrow maps? A competent player will never let you flank it.
8 Aug 2014, 03:42 AM
#29
avatar of Warthrone

Posts: 205

Permanently Banned
Made a post about how bad Ostheer performs awhile ago. It basically comes down to, as you noted, the map (half the map in the games are bad for Germans, a few are just hell), and weak early game.


Now if you do get a nice and balanced map (i.e. Langreskaya), your only option is to play defense. This means keep your Grens and MGs together at all times. If you don't, your grens will lose to superior Riflemen and Conscripts and MGs will get flanked. This forces you to have to play particularly cautious and strategic whereas the Allied player generally has free reign over 60% of the map for the first 15 minutes.

Now if you somehow make it past this time with decent map control as Ostheer, you're looking pretty good.

Basically Ostheer suck because Grens tend to die to RNG ("sniped") by Rifle fire whereas a conscript squad can more or less avoid this with 6 members. American Riflemen will always destroy a Gren squad 1v1, at any range, and conscripts nearly always win at close and medium range. Combine this with Soviet Cars and American Cars/AA Halftrack; you have a faction that needs large combined Arms and immobile strategy to also contend with vehicles.

As a note: the balance with Soviets isn't that bad - it's mostly vs. Americans where the Ostheer player needs a Pak ~7 min in the game to effectively contend with AA halftrack.

OKW avoids the problem og Ostheer since Volks, despite their crap damage, can hold the line well with their high durability and get a Puma out quickly to contend with AA Halftrack.


Agree...
8 Aug 2014, 04:17 AM
#30
avatar of pantherswag

Posts: 231

I think Ostheer are in a pretty good spot right now. Grens lose to rifles a little too hard, but the MG42 is an absolute beast vs US. They don't get indirect fire until they tech, and if they tech for howies, they forsake a AA rush. Their nades are good, but also stall them, and drains serious resources that can't be used on BARs or 1911s.

AA halftrack rush is powerful if you're completely blindsided by it, but Americans have a very easy to predict tech tree. If you see the Lieutenant you should know that a light vehicle is on the way. Once you know that have a bunch of options, shreks, a pak, a pair of 222s, tellers, whatever.

8 Aug 2014, 04:28 AM
#31
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

And what about ostheer armor?Thats in a good spot?
Panther elfant extinct.
PZ 4 Overpriced.
Tiger nerfed and last tank standing.
8 Aug 2014, 04:43 AM
#32
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

And what about ostheer armor?Thats in a good spot?
Panther elfant extinct.
PZ 4 Overpriced.
Tiger nerfed and last tank standing.


P4 is perfectly balanced. Elefant is fine. Panther needs the stats of the OKW one. Ostwind is still good, so is the Stug E. Vanilla Stug could use some love. Tiger is a great unit with probably the best quality/price ratio of all the late game heavies.

Compared to Soviets who have units that are downright obsolete if they don't use across the board OP call-ins (T-70, SU-76), Ostheer armor is doing fine apart from a few outstanding issues.

Or perhaps you would prefer the American tank park, that universally dies to a stiff breeze apart from two doctrinal tanks, one of which is fairly useless?

I mean, I don't think anyone can seriously claim Ostheer's late game is lacking. It's too Tiger dependent which should be fixed, but it's still incredibly solid.
8 Aug 2014, 04:53 AM
#33
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



P4 is perfectly balanced. Elefant is fine. Panther needs the stats of the OKW one. Ostwind is still good, so is the Stug E. Vanilla Stug could use some love. Tiger is a great unit with probably the best quality/price ratio of all the late game heavies.

Compared to Soviets who have units that are downright obsolete if they don't use across the board OP call-ins (T-70, SU-76), Ostheer armor is doing fine apart from a few outstanding issues.

Or perhaps you would prefer the American tank park, that universally dies to a stiff breeze apart from two doctrinal tanks, one of which is fairly useless?

I mean, I don't think anyone can seriously claim Ostheer's late game is lacking. It's too Tiger dependent which should be fixed, but it's still incredibly solid.


Don't lol urself..t-34/85s at 130 fuel and 360 mp vs panzer 4s at 350 mp and 125 fuel..fine?Put ur brain back on plz.
Panther with mamoth teching and 175 fuel..puny dps,no AI and shit accuracy fine?
Elefant is fine........HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..............
Soviets obsolete lol...stock t-34s are for price almost p4 level despite costing 25 fuel less.su-85s can beat p4s easy..and no one uses panther.
Now call-ins..on 1 side nerfed but still going tiger.
On other side isu-152,t-34/85s,kv-2,kv-1,shermans and ofc is-2 beast that can beat every german tank.So stfu when u don't know what ur talking abt.
8 Aug 2014, 04:59 AM
#34
avatar of pantherswag

Posts: 231

P4s are a little lackluster compared to T34/85s and EZ8s, but the Tiger and the Tiger Ace are imo the best tanks in the game. Great AT and AI, and a pretty great speed for a heavy tank. Both STUGS are great and super cheap. T4 in general is in a weird place, but the Tigers are good enough to make up for that.
8 Aug 2014, 05:38 AM
#35
avatar of tengen

Posts: 432

Ostheer may be boring, but they certainly aren't weak. Assuming unit preservation and a healthy handful of Grens with a mortar (Semois) or MG (Minsk) in the mix, plus a PaK. They can reasonably survive transitioning to T3 P4 and have a lategame Tiger. Going other Tigerless doctrines though, you're really going to sell yourself short when dealing with E8s, Jacksons, or Rifleblobs with 57mm.

The really big problem is that Ostheer is super bland. Snipers, FHT, and PGs are too cutesy and could cost you the game.
8 Aug 2014, 07:18 AM
#36
avatar of Milke Man

Posts: 26

Wehrmacht is still most balanced and is probably the best faction overall. They have strong defense and amazing tanks, and they don't have the resources problems that OKW has. They are strong all around
8 Aug 2014, 07:58 AM
#37
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Wehrmacht is still most balanced and is probably the best faction overall. They have strong defense and amazing tanks, and they don't have the resources problems that OKW has. They are strong all around


That would be soviets...wehr has excellent defense,but average offensive ability.
Highly vulnerable to usa.
Predictable and 1 infantry and 1 tank meta..saving grace is those units are reliable.
8 Aug 2014, 08:31 AM
#38
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747




Basically Ostheer suck because Grens tend to die to RNG ("sniped") by Rifle fire whereas a conscript squad can more or less avoid this with 6 members. American Riflemen will always destroy a Gren squad 1v1, at any range, and conscripts nearly always win at close and medium range. Combine this with Soviet Cars and American Cars/AA Halftrack; you have a faction that needs large combined Arms and immobile strategy to also contend with vehicles.



The 4-man sqaud design in it's current state is one of the biggest problems Ostheer has imo. With the frequency of entities suffering a crit, Grens and Pgrens too often lose 1/4 of their dps right at the beginn of an engagement. The lmg-upgrade kinda overcompensates this issue.

The survivabilty of 4-man squads is a general problem imo. I wouldn't change the squadsize but maybe alter the damage profiles of some weapons, so instead of losing models the health pool gets targeted primarily.
8 Aug 2014, 08:33 AM
#39
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

IMO,The effective units of Ostheer: LMG-grenadier,mortar,MG42,ATG,P4,ostwind,stug,tiger,and tiger ACE. The others are ridiculous.Someone mentioned elephant,it is bad now,70 range makes it fairly usless, Relic nerfed this unit too much. When the soviet player dont have a ISU, I prefer 2 ATG to counter armors. I wont spend 245 fuel to get a unit just have 10m more range.It a waste of resources. Also I dont know how they balance the ISU and elephant.Atm, you can see the ISU , but you cant see an elephant now.
8 Aug 2014, 08:54 AM
#40
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

The problem with Wehrmacht is that some units really over perform such as LMG Grens, Paks, P4's, Tigers. Whilst as a lot of under perform, basically everything other than those and other things such as Mortars Stug E etc. There really is no reason why Wehrmacht should not just spam LMG Grens into Paks, P4's and then Tiger to close game. Wehrmacht really need to get their units balanced out so there's actual variety and unit mixing, it's supposed to be a faction of combined arms, but it's so far from it.
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