As soviets it is really difficult to beat the Germans (SNF finals shows this), if they get a half-track with flames they will kill all your infantry and the half-track takes very little damage from AT grenades. The AT grenades also have to be researched which cost man power and ammo, however the Germans get panzersherks from the second tier with out paying out ammo or having a research time. and then if they get the stug or a heavy tank the soviets don't have anything to counter. Stugs will easily destroy a T34 with no damage. both of these tanks are from the same tiers so should be evenly matched.
So Relic please balance the game or someone please tell me how to beat the Germans no matter what they bring on to the feild.
Balance the Germans
8 Feb 2014, 18:28 PM
#1
Posts: 25
8 Feb 2014, 18:45 PM
#2
4 
Posts: 813 | Subs: 1
1: Schrecks cost 120 muni for each squad equipped. Would really call this a cost. Use this to your advantage. If they got a FHT, they will most likely not get schrecks fast. Other way around is also applicable.
2: Guards and Zis can take down a FHT really fast. Guards are available in some of the best free commanders in game. And Zis is more or less a no brainer to build anyways.
3: SNF finals really didnt prove much about unit balance as much as risk-reward strats of the players and map-balance.
4: The stug has a fixed gun, flank it. Also, the stug is a tankdestroyer, try not to attack it with tanks, because the name kind of implies what it does best.
This game is asymetrical in many ways. Tiers is one of them. The counterpart to the STUG is the Su85 (more or less) and comes in a diffrent tier. The counterpart to the t34 is the P4. Both come from t3 and the difference in cost explains the overall better performance of the p4.
The whole point about this game is assymetry. There shouldnt be any units that are by default evenly matched with stats and cost. That would ruin whats good about the game. Currently there are a few units that already are similar: pio/engi con/gren and this results in rng shootouts that are not really fun. Most other units provide you with tools for diffrent playstyles. You cannot (and should not) play both factions the same way. Mirror units are really boring. There were alot of mirrored units in beta for a while. No fun.
2: Guards and Zis can take down a FHT really fast. Guards are available in some of the best free commanders in game. And Zis is more or less a no brainer to build anyways.
3: SNF finals really didnt prove much about unit balance as much as risk-reward strats of the players and map-balance.
4: The stug has a fixed gun, flank it. Also, the stug is a tankdestroyer, try not to attack it with tanks, because the name kind of implies what it does best.
This game is asymetrical in many ways. Tiers is one of them. The counterpart to the STUG is the Su85 (more or less) and comes in a diffrent tier. The counterpart to the t34 is the P4. Both come from t3 and the difference in cost explains the overall better performance of the p4.
The whole point about this game is assymetry. There shouldnt be any units that are by default evenly matched with stats and cost. That would ruin whats good about the game. Currently there are a few units that already are similar: pio/engi con/gren and this results in rng shootouts that are not really fun. Most other units provide you with tools for diffrent playstyles. You cannot (and should not) play both factions the same way. Mirror units are really boring. There were alot of mirrored units in beta for a while. No fun.
8 Feb 2014, 18:55 PM
#3
Posts: 1571
I find the soviets stronger than the Germans until the Tanks come in.
9 Feb 2014, 00:09 AM
#4
Posts: 25
Thanks for the advice, I was just a bit annoyed as i was losing games as soviets, my problem was buying expensive off map units like the Mortar and shocks early game and then not having enough map presence at the start and the German player quickly locks down with mgs and FTH and then i cant do anything. I shouldn't really have posted this, just me playing bad. Thanks for the advice
9 Feb 2014, 00:27 AM
#5
Posts: 8
As soviets it is really difficult to beat the Germans (SNF finals shows this), if they get a half-track with flames they will kill all your infantry and the half-track takes very little damage from AT grenades. The AT grenades also have to be researched which cost man power and ammo, however the Germans get panzersherks from the second tier with out paying out ammo or having a research time. and then if they get the stug or a heavy tank the soviets don't have anything to counter. Stugs will easily destroy a T34 with no damage. both of these tanks are from the same tiers so should be evenly matched.
So Relic please balance the game or someone please tell me how to beat the Germans no matter what they bring on to the feild.
To be perfectly honest I find all of your points very unconvincing;
all of your arguments are based on dubious evidence.
9 Feb 2014, 00:29 AM
#6
Posts: 8
Thanks for the advice, I was just a bit annoyed as i was losing games as soviets, my problem was buying expensive off map units like the Mortar and shocks early game and then not having enough map presence at the start and the German player quickly locks down with mgs and FTH and then i cant do anything. I shouldn't really have posted this, just me playing bad. Thanks for the advice
Sorry man, didn't see this; wouldn't have posted if I had
9 Feb 2014, 02:52 AM
#7
Posts: 229
This game is *highly* dependent on unit composition. Learning which units deal best with which other units, and learning to predict the rough timings of 'power' units like FHT are essential to prospering in coh2.
Btw 2 or 3 AT Nodes should down a FHT.
Btw 2 or 3 AT Nodes should down a FHT.
9 Feb 2014, 11:28 AM
#8
Posts: 747
1: Schrecks cost 120 muni for each squad equipped. Would really call this a cost. Use this to your advantage. If they got a FHT, they will most likely not get schrecks fast. Other way around is also applicable.
2: Guards and Zis can take down a FHT really fast. Guards are available in some of the best free commanders in game. And Zis is more or less a no brainer to build anyways.
3: SNF finals really didnt prove much about unit balance as much as risk-reward strats of the players and map-balance.
4: The stug has a fixed gun, flank it. Also, the stug is a tankdestroyer, try not to attack it with tanks, because the name kind of implies what it does best.
This game is asymetrical in many ways. Tiers is one of them. The counterpart to the STUG is the Su85 (more or less) and comes in a diffrent tier. The counterpart to the t34 is the P4. Both come from t3 and the difference in cost explains the overall better performance of the p4.
+1 amen
The whole point about this game is assymetry. There shouldnt be any units that are by default evenly matched with stats and cost. That would ruin whats good about the game. Currently there are a few units that already are similar: pio/engi con/gren and this results in rng shootouts that are not really fun. Most other units provide you with tools for diffrent playstyles. You cannot (and should not) play both factions the same way. Mirror units are really boring. There were alot of mirrored units in beta for a while. No fun.
10 Feb 2014, 04:21 AM
#9
Posts: 344
In vCoH, micro, resource management, split second timing, infantry micro, and, did I mention infantry micro, was what won/lost games.
In CoH2, shock-based build orders, abusive strats, and rushing for elite infantry + a poorly microed tank blob is the way to victory.
Who here remembers being able to crap out ~3-4 Rangers (see: Guards) and go to town? Anyone? Best I got was 2, 3 on the outside end of a long public 4v4 derpfest.
vCoH had very nice, set parameters for units; Riflemen > Volks at short range, Riflemen ~= Volks at medium range, Riflemen < Volks at long range, with your odd RNG 'wat' thrown in. The MG42 dealt more suppression, while the .30 cal was the destroyer of worlds if it caught you in its crosshairs. Tommies ATE Panzergrenadiers alive but took MP40'd Volks and Grens up the butt. That was fun. You could soft-counter stuff with...well, soft counters.
In CoH2, I don't have that feeling. Cons = Grens at all ranges. LMG Grens > Cons. Penals > Grens. LMG Grens > Penals. PGs > anything that's not Shocks. Shocks > The rest.
P4 > T-34 (sans ram). T-34...> Scout Car?
In vCoH there were plenty of strats you could use; AND THEY WORKED. Sjceran's Importunate Strategy (SIS; 5x Rifles -> BARS + mines), WSC starts, 'Say no to Klaus' M8 rush, 4ES (4 Engies -> Sniper), or good old-fashioned 4 Rifles -> whatevs.
On the flip side, V/MG/V/MG/V/whatevs, Piospam, FHQ rush, sniper-centric builds...
In CoH2, I see no diverse or fun strats. I mostly play team games, so maybe that's where all of this comes from, but I just see cheesy strats to make a quick land grab (the importance of capping specific points is diminished because of the crap resource system), camp it, and rush tanks. Abuse terribad infantry balance (A PG can walk up to four Cons and terminate them, Shocks are bullet/shell proof, etc) and spam Panthers/SU-85s. And the issue is that you CAN spam them. I go through 6+ T-34s in games where I dgaf. I'd get 3 Shermans or P4s max and baby them, and actually care if I lost one. Right now, I just go "hmph" and wait 10 more seconds to crank out a new tank. sp4ejksdfhn
/rant off
Whoever said unit composition, have a cookie. That's the key. Find the derpiest strat (Maxim spam) and synergize it with another abusive/powerful unit/strat -> victory. Oh, and pray to the RNG gods. No skill required if you have the right unit.
In CoH2, shock-based build orders, abusive strats, and rushing for elite infantry + a poorly microed tank blob is the way to victory.
Who here remembers being able to crap out ~3-4 Rangers (see: Guards) and go to town? Anyone? Best I got was 2, 3 on the outside end of a long public 4v4 derpfest.
vCoH had very nice, set parameters for units; Riflemen > Volks at short range, Riflemen ~= Volks at medium range, Riflemen < Volks at long range, with your odd RNG 'wat' thrown in. The MG42 dealt more suppression, while the .30 cal was the destroyer of worlds if it caught you in its crosshairs. Tommies ATE Panzergrenadiers alive but took MP40'd Volks and Grens up the butt. That was fun. You could soft-counter stuff with...well, soft counters.
In CoH2, I don't have that feeling. Cons = Grens at all ranges. LMG Grens > Cons. Penals > Grens. LMG Grens > Penals. PGs > anything that's not Shocks. Shocks > The rest.
P4 > T-34 (sans ram). T-34...> Scout Car?
In vCoH there were plenty of strats you could use; AND THEY WORKED. Sjceran's Importunate Strategy (SIS; 5x Rifles -> BARS + mines), WSC starts, 'Say no to Klaus' M8 rush, 4ES (4 Engies -> Sniper), or good old-fashioned 4 Rifles -> whatevs.
On the flip side, V/MG/V/MG/V/whatevs, Piospam, FHQ rush, sniper-centric builds...
In CoH2, I see no diverse or fun strats. I mostly play team games, so maybe that's where all of this comes from, but I just see cheesy strats to make a quick land grab (the importance of capping specific points is diminished because of the crap resource system), camp it, and rush tanks. Abuse terribad infantry balance (A PG can walk up to four Cons and terminate them, Shocks are bullet/shell proof, etc) and spam Panthers/SU-85s. And the issue is that you CAN spam them. I go through 6+ T-34s in games where I dgaf. I'd get 3 Shermans or P4s max and baby them, and actually care if I lost one. Right now, I just go "hmph" and wait 10 more seconds to crank out a new tank. sp4ejksdfhn
/rant off
Whoever said unit composition, have a cookie. That's the key. Find the derpiest strat (Maxim spam) and synergize it with another abusive/powerful unit/strat -> victory. Oh, and pray to the RNG gods. No skill required if you have the right unit.
Pocketsize: "I can't wait till they add british to CoH: O; the extreme forces leveled by the new imbalances will create a black hole around the servers that destroys half of Canada."
10 Feb 2014, 08:59 AM
#10
Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8
words
I think you're looking through waaay to pink tinned nostalgia glasses here or don't remember much about vCoH anymore.
Wasn't defensive med bunker for wehr an abusive strat?
BAR rifles with airborne into shermans/wolverines?
Greyhound shock strats?
Brits being the definition of abuse, regardless what they did?
No need for hard AT for anything below T4, because sticky cheeze bombs were enough to take everything lighter then P4?
German vet3 sniper spam?
American sniper vs PE?
Because of how deflection damage worked a frigin HOTCHKISS could take on best allied armor and win, the whine would NEVER end if 4-5 T-70 could drop a tiger/ele as hotchkisses STOMPED pershing.
You're also exaggerating much about these split second timings as well. CoH2 is more micro intensive then vCoh.
Also, 6-8 months into vCoH release you didn't had any diverse strats at all, that developed OVER 7 YEARS. First year was basically who can cheez out more.
That would be about it when it comes to actual reality check.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
10 Feb 2014, 12:48 PM
#11
Posts: 503
Permanently BannedProblem with a paper armor car?!
And for the friend that wanna 120munis for schrecks, 120munis for the magic soviet grenade too! But i think not...
Schrecks is the only good versus a early t70 spam...
And for the friend that wanna 120munis for schrecks, 120munis for the magic soviet grenade too! But i think not...
Schrecks is the only good versus a early t70 spam...
10 Feb 2014, 13:02 PM
#12
15 
Posts: 786
every 2v2 I play is vs bunkers, vetted pgren spam, fht, shrecks.
really frustrating
really frustrating
10 Feb 2014, 13:20 PM
#13
4 
Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2
Not sure why this thread exitst to be honest.
Metallicblack already said he found his solutions so this should be closed before we create yet another balance thread. For those who like to discuss this further, please take it to an already existing thread
Metallicblack already said he found his solutions so this should be closed before we create yet another balance thread. For those who like to discuss this further, please take it to an already existing thread
18 Feb 2014, 14:56 PM
#14
Posts: 503
Permanently BannedI disagree, german good? Only for ppl...
I tired of surrender early game because you see no chance versus sov cons and maxim spam, sniper need for speed, shock's god mod, satelite mortar, etc....
And half track with FHT??? Rng god's take it turtle mod... Always explosing and repairing...
I tired of surrender early game because you see no chance versus sov cons and maxim spam, sniper need for speed, shock's god mod, satelite mortar, etc....
And half track with FHT??? Rng god's take it turtle mod... Always explosing and repairing...
18 Feb 2014, 15:05 PM
#15
Posts: 1003
I disagree, german good? Only for ppl...
I tired of surrender early game because you see no chance versus sov cons and maxim spam, sniper need for speed, shock's god mod, satelite mortar, etc....
And half track with FHT??? Rng god's take it turtle mod... Always explosing and repairing...
It is L2P issue. Germans have the same chances 2win. Soviets whine about OP Germans units and .........
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
18 Feb 2014, 15:28 PM
#16
Posts: 36
every 2v2 I play is vs bunkers, vetted pgren spam, fht, shrecks.
really frustrating
And every 2vs2 i play vs sovjet, i see doubleshocks or shocks and guards or doubleguards or maxim spam or sniperspam or..... so it's frustrating too.
18 Feb 2014, 15:40 PM
#17
Posts: 1701
Sniper need for speed xDDDDD
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
18 Feb 2014, 17:33 PM
#18
Posts: 157
I find the soviets stronger than the Germans until the Tanks come in.
Do you mean until the tiger ace comes in?
18 Feb 2014, 17:37 PM
#19
Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8
And every 2vs2 i play vs sovjet, i see doubleshocks or shocks and guards or doubleguards or maxim spam or sniperspam or..... so it's frustrating too.
What I read here is "every game I face is not a conscript spam".
Don't worry, you will have your conscript spam every game after patch.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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