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Patch Notes Discussion (Dec. 10th)

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12 Dec 2013, 20:43 PM
#161
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

Ad hominem? Arguing with me the meaning of ''missing out on something'' is ad hominem in itself.

Your example of the tool box is very exactly what I am describing by saying ''missing out of something''

If you've understood it to mean something else, that's why I said maybe its a language thing.



To put it very clearly, that statement simply means you cannot now have it, which is a simple matter of fact.


Why are you always so keen to jump rather aggressively on anyone you disagree with, over rather small and insignificant things like the meaning of a figure of speach.

You have some good points, but it's your manner, at times that gets people's backs up.
12 Dec 2013, 20:45 PM
#162
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
So because you have to choose 1 Commander, you are missing out on the other 2, and therefore your preferred chosen Commander must be buffed.

Great logic, bro.

I was extremely reasonable with you. I even took time to type out two detailed examples that illustrate my point.

There was nothing offensive in any of that, even though you have engaged in ad hominem from the start.

What you, my friend, need to realise, is that none of this is personal, nor does it need to be. But you are constantly trying to make it that.

Why? Because you are upset, personally, when I pointed out that the "missing out" thing really doesnt make much sense, nor is it relevant to balance discussion.

You don't "miss out" on anything when you choose a Commander from the 3 available to you. You make a choice to HAVE what that Commander provides.

I'm sorry if you can't see that, but its no reason to get personal.
If you don't get it, fine. You don't get it then. We can drop the discussion then.

My post was completely impersonal. Yet your first response was "are you insane".
That, to me, is extremely personal, offensive and impolite. Dont try to blame me for that. You did that, not me.
12 Dec 2013, 21:42 PM
#163
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

Where do you get that I want something buffed because its missing something?

I most certainly do not.


I was only explaining why it is potentially possible for an ability to cost less than it is actually worth, simply because part of its cost is losing access to a different type of strong unit or ability.


I.e. it is ok to get stronger cons at a cheap price, in light of missing out on heavy tanks.


Yeah from what you've said, it's a simple misunderstanding of English, maybe my phrase only works in this country, so sorry if that's confused it.

What you explain is exactly what that phrase means. I didn't mean anything else by it.


I'm not trying to be personal either, I know your trying to make a point, it's just the language in a lot of your posts is a little over inforcive, that's the only 'offensive bit'.
12 Dec 2013, 22:21 PM
#164
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Ok Jafool, we understand each other and are cool as far as I'm concerned too.

Back to business then!

I think roughly where we left off was ontopic of the new PPSHs.
13 Dec 2013, 14:59 PM
#165
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

one should consider that this wasnt actually a balance change in terms of "yeah that thing is quite balanced, but lets fool around with it a little bit", but a bugfix. the stats on the PPSHs were the wrong ones and lead to them overperforming (mini-lmgs)in certain scenarios. so i think that change (even if one wasnt aware of them having the wrong stats) was a move towards improved balance.
Lets call them P(iss)P(oor)SH(it)s from now on
13 Dec 2013, 15:17 PM
#166
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

one should consider that this wasnt actually a balance change in terms of "yeah that thing is quite balanced, but lets fool around with it a little bit", but a bugfix. the stats on the PPSHs were the wrong ones and lead to them overperforming (mini-lmgs)in certain scenarios. so i think that change (even if one wasnt aware of them having the wrong stats) was a move towards improved balance.
Lets call them P(iss)P(oor)SH(it)s from now on


Didn't heard anyone complaining of them though,anyway from my opinion this nerf was too extreme and unnecesary...
13 Dec 2013, 15:25 PM
#167
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

I do agree ninja PPSH nerf hurts certain commanders a lot and once useful and never overpowered upgrade is now somehow lacking.
13 Dec 2013, 15:41 PM
#168
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
I do agree ninja PPSH nerf hurts certain commanders a lot and once useful and never overpowered upgrade is now somehow lacking.


Uhm no.

It was infact always overpowered before.

As I already outlined, PPSH Cons, for 10 Muni, now operate as:
-2x the moving DPS of moving vanilla Cons.
-same DPS when moving as a stationary vanilla Con.
-60% more dmg when stationary than a stationary vanilla Con.

For 10 Muni, thats win against all unupgraded Grens, and you can easily field multiple PPSH to every LMG/G43 upgrade he makes.

Sorry, but you need to adjust your perceived privilege.
I know its hard for you to accept that, but thats how it is.

PPSH was operating, wrongly, with Single Player stats.
They are now properly Multiplayer stats.

It doesn't "hurt" these Commanders. It returns balance to where it should be.
Sorry if that upsets you, but if you want a better game, with better balance, you should welcome this change.
13 Dec 2013, 15:44 PM
#169
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 15:41 PMNullist


Uhm no.

It was infact always overpowered before.


Again,I failed to see a single thread about it being overpowered...
13 Dec 2013, 15:46 PM
#170
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned


Again,I failed to see a single thread about it being overpowered...


Maybe you are a very selective reader.

As it turns out, it has always been overpowered before.
Basically, that means you have been perceiving it wrongly for all this time.

And whats really funny, is that some Sov bois wanted it to be CP1 with its old imbalanced stats. Goes to show how far off the mark some people actually are in terms of their balance perspectives.
13 Dec 2013, 15:55 PM
#171
avatar of jeesuspietari

Posts: 168

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 15:46 PMNullist


Maybe you are a very selective reader.

As it turns out, it has always been overpowered before.
Basically, that means you have been perceiving it wrongly for all this time.

And whats really funny, is that some Sov bois wanted it to be CP1 with its old imbalanced stats. Goes to show how far off the mark some people actually are in terms of their balance perspectives.


Yeah I can't understand those biased people either
13 Dec 2013, 15:55 PM
#172
avatar of DerBaer

Posts: 219

Never heard anybody complain about the previous PPSH's... maybe a price change would have been the better adjustment. We have been playing with those PPSH's since official release until now. That's almost six months.
13 Dec 2013, 16:00 PM
#173
avatar of FeelMemoryAcceptance

Posts: 785 | Subs: 2

I find the balance broken now.

Why ?

- green cover > buldings, so conscripts of russians < infantery of germans in all situations.

- mg 42 can be use for clear all buildings too and now MG 42 can be use in my opinion like an aggressiv weapon, not like a support weapon like before.

-In close map like langres, if i goes to Maxim, and him mg42, MG 42 win Dual, if i have engage first the mg 42 too, it's not fair.

--------> If the german don't need some Ht flamm or pio flamm for clear buildings, he can go to MG 42 for grens fest ...., but conscript have ppsh more quickly, but mg 42 ( for gren ) in begin is very strong now in all situations.

Before patch, i find maybe cheat the MG 42 upgrade for grens in MINSK because buildings were not here for help conscripts.

For me, the balance is broken, i have stop to play the game.

13 Dec 2013, 16:02 PM
#174
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

I do agree ninja PPSH nerf hurts certain commanders a lot and once useful and never overpowered upgrade is now somehow lacking.


Please keep in mind that this was a bug fix, not a nerf. Old ppsh were extremely over powered. Anyone that didn't realize this was either really dense or quite slow... Also plenty of people complained about them, including myself. So yeah. Deal with it.
13 Dec 2013, 16:04 PM
#175
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Most of the "complaining" about PPSH's was apparent specifically in threads where some Sov bois wanted the old overpowered PPSH to be CP1. Serious posters where so busy debunking and damage controlling in those threads they never even got a chance to post "PPSH needs nerf" threads, and the resultant animosity and trolling from those same Sov posters to even one such thread would have been absolutely enormous.

And there where MANY of those. Repeatedly, people tried to push the old PPSH to CP1.

There, the complaints against PPSH where mostly expressed in a desperate effort to prevent their change to CP1 with the old stats. Not that the Sov bois acknowledged even one inch of those.

Imagine if I had posted a PPSH nerf thread a month ago. Imagine the reaction.
I got called all kinds of shit for resisting and arguing against the old PPSH being changed to CP1, as they wanted... Guess who was right in the end?

As much as you may hate me and think I'm an asshat, take it from me as someone who has read everything since launch on Central Coh2 tab. Thats how its happened.

Hilarious, in retrospect. How completely out of touch so much balance discussion actually is. I am eternally glad and grateful that Relics real balance team, yet again, cuts through the bullshit and is really centrally concerned with actual real issues, time and time again they have delivered on those.

DLC Commanders, obviously not withstanding, but those are by another guy, and financially motivated. Unfortunate, but the real balance team is still delivering sterling patches that really, seriously, improve the game patch after patch.
13 Dec 2013, 16:09 PM
#176
avatar of DerBaer

Posts: 219

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 16:02 PMCieZ


Please keep in mind that this was a bug fix, not a nerf. Old ppsh were extremely over powered. Anyone that didn't realize this was either really dense or quite slow... Also plenty of people complained about them, including myself. So yeah. Deal with it.


Dang, never really noticed the complaints about the PPSH's. To be honest, I never really felt bothered by them.

Like I said before, I think a price change would have been more adéquat. Maybe 20 ammo per entity, and only up to three PPSH's allowed per squad. That would make it 60 ammo in total to be effective in mid to late game.
13 Dec 2013, 16:09 PM
#177
avatar of PaRaNo1a
Patrion 26

Posts: 600

I find the balance broken now.

Why ?

- green cover > buldings, so conscripts of russians < infantery of germans in all situations.

- mg 42 can be use for clear all buildings too and now MG 42 can be use in my opinion like an aggressiv weapon, not like a support weapon like before.

-In close map like langres, if i goes to Maxim, and him mg42, MG 42 win Dual, if i have engage first the mg 42 too, it's not fair.

--------> If the german don't need some Ht flamm or pio flamm for clear buildings, he can go to MG 42 for grens fest ...., but conscript have ppsh more quickly, but mg 42 ( for gren ) in begin is very strong now in all situations.

Before patch, i find maybe cheat the MG 42 upgrade for grens in MINSK because buildings were not here for help conscripts.

For me, the balance is broken, i have stop to play the game.



Green cover should be > buildings
MG42 doesn`t suppress maxim if it doesnt shoot first. So here you either pu maxim out of cover while MG is in cover or you simply use the command attack on move with the maxim and walk into a placed MG. If you seriously believe that the MG was doing something before patch, I think you should stop playing this game as soviets only.... Also why would Ostheer need to upgrade to flames to counter building when soviets can simply throw a molotov?
13 Dec 2013, 16:11 PM
#178
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

The Ppsh was well overpowered before, it wasnt even a nerf, it was just an error correction.


Weather the Ppsh is now with new stats, a tiny little bit underpowered, well that is something you could potentially argue.


But not the 1st one.
13 Dec 2013, 16:16 PM
#179
avatar of PaRaNo1a
Patrion 26

Posts: 600

They are fine 2 cons with ppsh can rape a gren squad. Played with PPSH yesterday and didn`t even notice a difference. But still for some reason it feels that cons started dying faster than before ( vanilla vs vanilla)
13 Dec 2013, 16:16 PM
#180
avatar of DerBaer

Posts: 219

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 16:04 PMNullist
And there where MANY of those. Repeatedly, people tried to push the old PPSH to CP1.

There, the complaints where mostly expressed in a desperate effort to prevent that. Not that the Sov bois acknowledged even one inch of those.


That kind of rings a bell now. Maybe because I never really felt bothered by the PPSH upgrade I overread it...



jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 16:04 PMNullist
As much as you may hate me and think I'm an asshat, take it from me as someone who has read everything since launch on Central Coh2 tab. Thats how its happened.


Nah, what for? Just "talking" about PPSH's here... I guess i just perceived things differently. I just find it a bit odd that it was a bug all along.
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