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Ostheer sux ass

23 Mar 2021, 22:41 PM
#41
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4



Ostheer absolutely has a higher skill ceiling than other factions. The issue is most players have gotten used to abusing the completely broken 5man Grens and Osttruppen and now have to play the faction properly and their delusions about their own skill have been completely shattered. They need to inhale a lot of copium and quickly.


Agreed, but to build on that, fragility is a permanent weakness, so where is the compensation for it? I've seen many players far greater than myself play properly, make one blunder and their day is ruined. Of course I understand that is often nature of high level games, positions are equal with players trying to maximise their strategic edges and a tiny advantage is all it takes to win a match but for the Ostheer, blunders or even inaccuracies are punished far more severely that doesn't seem fair, or fun to play with/against.

Take the replay I posted for example. Ostheer played perfectly, I think the use of their abilities and unit activity they were exemplary, and demonstrated a much higher skill ceiling against a higher rated opponent, but there's no reward for that, they had to play perfectly to maintain parity-- that's the issue. If two super computers play for eternity Ostheer will always lose 'cos there isn't any compensation. So I say, either lower the skill ceiling, make Ostheer less punishing to play, or... and I don't like the thought of it, reward them for when they play perfectly, but that brings back Wunderwaffe which was 104x less fun to play with/against than now, so that's a shitty idea also :/
23 Mar 2021, 22:52 PM
#42
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

As always I will state that my complaint with OST is that grens are trash that need to specialize in durability, or firepower, and not the middleground solution we have now. As is they're mostly worthless, particularly against the WFA as rifleman can win any 1 on 1 engagement by charging them, even in green cover, and sections blow them out in any match-up except for close up early game fights.

Allied armies are being balanced against volks which are just better grens for the most part, so it shouldn't be a surprise that grens are underpreforming, and 5 men or some other infantry is the only viable open for OST.

90% of OST's issues can be fixed by changing gren RA to 1, and increasing their damage, particularly long range, to compensate. If this makes them too fragile in the late game a little bit of damage reduction can be added to vet3, or preferably to one of the later battlephases. This change gives grens a role distinct from 'worse volksgren' that gives better flavor to the faction. With higher long range damage they can actually exert map control since it doesn't take 5 minutes to win a favorable engagement, and the higher RA emphasizes good MG play to limit losses.


Interesting suggestions, thanks for your input. I always get weary about changing values surrounding core infantry, and something like you suggest is likely a pipe dream but interesting to consider.
23 Mar 2021, 22:57 PM
#43
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4






And I wish I understood game design to even a beginner level because I think what you're saying makes entire sense, a very cogent analysis of both the history and why/how we've reached where we're at, but I don't know what to do about it, 'cos as I replied to Stormjager, and you recognise. There isn't any compensation for when Ostheer play well, they have to just to maintain equality.
23 Mar 2021, 23:01 PM
#44
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2021, 22:29 PMPip


Sure, if you GET a vet 5 PiV or Panther, but we both know that getting a veterancy 5 vehicle like that isnt a sure thing, and that vet 4/5 generally aren't the most impactful bonuses. I'm still saying that the Ostwind, StuG, and Brummbar especially make up for the lack of vet 4/5.

The Jp4 is nice, also, though it's primarily an "anti-td" TD.

Also: the Stuka and Pwerfer have rather different roles, It's hard to say which of the two is "better", as they do different things, but I'd probably rather have a Werfer in a 1v1 rather than a Stuka.


I mostly agree, I'll be churlish though and say I'm more likely to reach Vet5 than a am building an Ostheer army comp that can include all those tools; furthermore I think players are far more likely to reach Vet5 with an army comp consisting of Rak's Obers and Volks than they are to reach Vet3 with the Ostheer supporting cast.
24 Mar 2021, 01:04 AM
#45
avatar of LMAO

Posts: 163

It's time to move on and don't play ostheer, why play a faction who got suck mainline infantry on a game meant to spam mainline infantry
24 Mar 2021, 01:10 AM
#46
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2021, 17:28 PMLeo251
Please, lets be honest, the only thing the was keeping Ost playable before the last patch was the Infantry Doctrine 5men Gren upgrade.

In this last patch the "brillant" balance team decided to nerf it (dont know why), setting Ost again in an horrible balance position.

Also decided to nerf another important units of Ost roster like Brumm Armor and sniper LOS.

Brums armor wasn't nerfed only the vet bonus was. Brum at vet3 now has the same armor as Panther vet3 which is 300. Considering all TD lost 8% pen from vet compared to 4% armor from vet I'd say it's a buff.
24 Mar 2021, 01:18 AM
#47
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 01:04 AMLMAO
It's time to move on and don't play ostheer, why play a faction who got suck mainline infantry on a game meant to spam mainline infantry


Yeah, but when I was younger the game was different and I could play them properly, I wanted to be like Angegriffin, part of that feeling still barely still lives. Now cos I'm old and a masochist I want to understand all the factions as a strategist, the appeal of fighting uphill for no real reason just isn't there anymore; which is funny cos instead of grinding out games I just angrily post about it which is kind of the same thing only worse lmaoo
24 Mar 2021, 01:42 AM
#48
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

i agree. a 2 ost team game is weakest imo.

ost works best with okw team mate because of 5 man volks and luch/puma to carry the early-mid game.
24 Mar 2021, 02:05 AM
#49
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2021, 08:45 AMVipper
I agree with most of the analysis I do not agree identifying the problem.

The problem imo was that when WFA armies where introduced it was the Ostheer/Soviet that ended be adjusted to them and not the other way around.


Right, that's sort of what I was getting at - maybe just not in enough detail.

The problem is, in CoH2, it's a lot easier to tweak an "aggressive squishy/cheap" faction than it is to tweak a "defensive tanky/expensive" faction. That, combined with the requirement to keep "faction flavor" is what I think we're seeing here.

Making a squishy/cheap/close-range faction better is pretty simple; increase the DPS to keep up with higher HP units, but keep the HP pool low while keeping cost down. If it's too squishy, adjust the HP up a little. There's really not too much of a limit to this, either. Cost can go down to zero, HP can get close to zero, and only DPS has an upper limit (at some point you hit "instant-melting" levels). However, as the price of units is generally low, you don't expect "instant-melting" DPS from them.

Adjusting a tanky/expensive/long-range faction has way more limits. Defensive stats can't go up infinitely as eventually the unit is indestructible and becomes an "I win" button. Price also can't go up infinitely, as it becomes non-viable to float the resources required to build it. Additionally, DPS needs to be reflective of the price; an expensive unit can't do low amounts damage (near-zero), as then it can be safely ignored - so DPS is somewhat tied to price.

This is what I think we're seeing with ost; we're hitting two of the limits. We can't make the mainline units tankier (i.e. stock 5-man 2-slot grens), because they'd stay in the field too long doing high DPS. We can't make the tanks tankier, as it forces the allied factions into more and more niche AT roles. We also can't make the units more expensive, as OST already struggles with MP bleed. Essentially, we've hit the point where OST is a caricature of what it once was, and it's because of the expansion factions.

Basically, if we (well, the balance team) wants/needs to keep the current faction flavors, OST and to a lesser extent, Sov, need to become the limits of "offensive" and "defensive", with every other faction in between. As long as they're not, they can't fill the design roles they're supposed to.
24 Mar 2021, 02:29 AM
#50
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793



Right, that's sort of what I was getting at - maybe just not in enough detail.

The problem is, in CoH2, it's a lot easier to tweak an "aggressive squishy/cheap" faction than it is to tweak a "defensive tanky/expensive" faction. That, combined with the requirement to keep "faction flavor" is what I think we're seeing here.

Making a squishy/cheap/close-range faction better is pretty simple; increase the DPS to keep up with higher HP units, but keep the HP pool low while keeping cost down. If it's too squishy, adjust the HP up a little. There's really not too much of a limit to this, either. Cost can go down to zero, HP can get close to zero, and only DPS has an upper limit (at some point you hit "instant-melting" levels). However, as the price of units is generally low, you don't expect "instant-melting" DPS from them.

Adjusting a tanky/expensive/long-range faction has way more limits. Defensive stats can't go up infinitely as eventually the unit is indestructible and becomes an "I win" button. Price also can't go up infinitely, as it becomes non-viable to float the resources required to build it. Additionally, DPS needs to be reflective of the price; an expensive unit can't do low amounts damage (near-zero), as then it can be safely ignored - so DPS is somewhat tied to price.

This is what I think we're seeing with ost; we're hitting two of the limits. We can't make the mainline units tankier (i.e. stock 5-man 2-slot grens), because they'd stay in the field too long doing high DPS. We can't make the tanks tankier, as it forces the allied factions into more and more niche AT roles. We also can't make the units more expensive, as OST already struggles with MP bleed. Essentially, we've hit the point where OST is a caricature of what it once was, and it's because of the expansion factions.

Basically, if we (well, the balance team) wants/needs to keep the current faction flavors, OST and to a lesser extent, Sov, need to become the limits of "offensive" and "defensive", with every other faction in between. As long as they're not, they can't fill the design roles they're supposed to.


imo a little tweaks to ost vet levels should help.
presently ost combined arms are not good enough to handle allies

mg42 just need to pack up faster on vet 2.
pak gets some vision on vet 2
pio get more repair speed at vet 2 sweeper
MMX
24 Mar 2021, 02:47 AM
#51
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 02:29 AMmrgame2


imo a little tweaks to ost vet levels should help.
presently ost combined arms are not good enough to handle allies

mg42 just need to pack up faster on vet 2.
pak gets some vision on vet 2
pio get more repair speed at vet 2 sweeper


they do already get repair speed with vet/sweeper
24 Mar 2021, 03:03 AM
#52
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 02:47 AMMMX


they do already get repair speed with vet/sweeper


no i mean more repair speed on top it.

MMX
24 Mar 2021, 03:05 AM
#53
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



It's exactly the opposite. Volks are pure garbage lategame and need a lategame buff ASAP. LMG Grens are very competent and become very powerful with camouflage/sprint if you pick the right doctrine. Ostheer is however a fragile faction for a variety of reasons. LMG Grens are long range specialists, MG42 is slow and if flanked and caught out of position it probably has to retreat, exposing your entire front. Big dependence on support teams (42, pak40, sniper) leads to fragility compared to OKW/USF builds that focus on numerous infantry. Ostheer doesn't have LV dominance because of the 222's fragility so it suffers from the dominant allied LVs (T70, Quad, AAHT, Stuart, Valentine) if it spreads out.

Ostheer absolutely has a higher skill ceiling than other factions. The issue is most players have gotten used to abusing the completely broken 5man Grens and Osttruppen and now have to play the faction properly and their delusions about their own skill have been completely shattered. They need to inhale a lot of copium and quickly.


this is probably the most accurrate assessment in this thread so far. ost is still strong in 1v1 if played correctly, but at the same time the least forgiving faction in terms of errors, misplays or simply bad rng rolls that can be incredibly difficult to recover from.

24 Mar 2021, 04:37 AM
#54
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 03:05 AMMMX


this is probably the most accurrate assessment in this thread so far. ost is still strong in 1v1 if played correctly, but at the same time the least forgiving faction in terms of errors, misplays or simply bad rng rolls that can be incredibly difficult to recover from.


Really caus i'd disagree with the last part. I'd say whats happening is you need more units to contain infantry that leaves less room for you to do any other stuff. And to really do other stuff you have choose between very pop cap heavy units which do nothing more than occupy your pop cap if you choose wrong.
24 Mar 2021, 08:07 AM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Right, that's sort of what I was getting at - maybe just not in enough detail.

The problem is, in CoH2, it's a lot easier to tweak an "aggressive squishy/cheap" faction than it is to tweak a "defensive tanky/expensive" faction. That, combined with the requirement to keep "faction flavor" is what I think we're seeing here.

Making a squishy/cheap/close-range faction better is pretty simple; increase the DPS to keep up with higher HP units, but keep the HP pool low while keeping cost down. If it's too squishy, adjust the HP up a little. There's really not too much of a limit to this, either. Cost can go down to zero, HP can get close to zero, and only DPS has an upper limit (at some point you hit "instant-melting" levels). However, as the price of units is generally low, you don't expect "instant-melting" DPS from them.

Adjusting a tanky/expensive/long-range faction has way more limits. Defensive stats can't go up infinitely as eventually the unit is indestructible and becomes an "I win" button. Price also can't go up infinitely, as it becomes non-viable to float the resources required to build it. Additionally, DPS needs to be reflective of the price; an expensive unit can't do low amounts damage (near-zero), as then it can be safely ignored - so DPS is somewhat tied to price.

This is what I think we're seeing with ost; we're hitting two of the limits. We can't make the mainline units tankier (i.e. stock 5-man 2-slot grens), because they'd stay in the field too long doing high DPS. We can't make the tanks tankier, as it forces the allied factions into more and more niche AT roles. We also can't make the units more expensive, as OST already struggles with MP bleed. Essentially, we've hit the point where OST is a caricature of what it once was, and it's because of the expansion factions.

Basically, if we (well, the balance team) wants/needs to keep the current faction flavors, OST and to a lesser extent, Sov, need to become the limits of "offensive" and "defensive", with every other faction in between. As long as they're not, they can't fill the design roles they're supposed to.


As I have said many times, the time to buff unit/Faction A to balance it has passed, it is time to nerf unit/Faction B to get balance.
25 Mar 2021, 01:23 AM
#56
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4



jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 03:05 AMMMX


this is probably the most accurrate assessment in this thread so far. ost is still strong in 1v1 if played correctly, but at the same time the least forgiving faction in terms of errors, misplays or simply bad rng rolls that can be incredibly difficult to recover from.




25 Mar 2021, 05:01 AM
#57
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

Losing your team weapons is extremely punishing as Ost, because your infantry are all only 4 men so recreating a team weapon, even with a full health squad, is extremely risky.

Ost team weapons are better than their counterparts which helps make up for weak grenadiers. But, team weapons can be de crewed and then tuned against you, giving your strength to your opponent.
As an example, as Soviets capturing a MG42 or PaK is very good. However, as Ost, capturing a Maxim or Vickers is relatively worse.

Ost doesn’t get sand bags
Long range, Grens will lose to cons or IS behind sandbags, and Riflemen can usually charge and win versus grenadiers without green cover.
So, this forces Ost to play around natural cover, while Grens and IS can build sandbags

This forces Ost to play very defensive as:
You cannot afford to let your enemy capture your team weapons, as losing them to your enemy gives them strong infantry plus a strong team weapon, which then causes you to lose the team weapon edge you need to make up for your weaker infantry
Plus, If you loose your team weapons in a foreward position, you can’t recapture them if your squads have lost any models, and even at full health a one man squad retreating after recrewing is very vulnerable to being wiped.

Then consider light vehicles
The 222 scales very poorly compared to other light vehicles:

AEC: has tread shot, smoke and good penetration, plus 3 shots of HP
Stuart: has blinding shot and 3 shots of HP, crew for repairs and capping
AA half track: 3 shots of HP at vet3, crew for repairs and capping
T70: has recon mode for capping and vision, 3 shots HP
Luchs: 3 shots of HP
Puma: has critical shot and 50 range, plus smoke, plus 3 shots of HP

What does the 222 have? It’s shock value is great with an early timing, but after that it falls of sharply.
It could be good for vision, but it struggles to get the required veterancy as it can’t damage vehicles to get veterancy, and using it on the frontline after 1-2 minutes is too risky as it dies in 2 shots.

The same goes for the P4. It comes a bit earlier, but then scales way worse.
The OKW P4 has more armour and better scatter,
The T34 comes at the same time but the second one comes out sooner than a second P4 and then they can 2v1 your P4
The Sherman has smoke and HE rounds, and better moving accuracy. This means that if USF wins, he gets to turn on HE rounds and start wiping units. But if you win, you have the same old mediocre AI power.
Cromwell is worse, but the AEC can back it up pushing it in favour of Brits, and Brits can get the Churchill or Comet which beat a P4 and have AOE to kill infantry. This forces you to get a Panther to counter, but it doesn’t have main gun AOE..

As you can see from above, Ost has very tight windows for its “shock” units, the 222 and P4. They come before their counters, so they have to be weaker, but the opportunity gap is incredibly small before the allies get their better unit combos out, and then you lose the advantage


These are all very subtle weaknesses, and aren’t apparent at first glance. But they show themselves slowly over time, and lead to Ost being weaker than the rest of the factions, but only once you look past unit timings and unit comparisons.

One thing I will say, is that Panzergrenadiers are carrying Ost. The Shrecks are the best inf AT, and cover you weak vehicles, and they can beat other mainlines, making up for your weak infantry. But they bleed a lot of manpower and are fragile at 4 men. In the end however, they can’t make up for all the above weaknesses.

Below are some ideas for rectifying the above stated weaknesses.

Grens are never getting 5 men. But something needs to be done to make ost’s team weapons less risky to use. Maybe they could get reduced received accuracy when retreating, or maybe even OST’s team weapons could become 5 man. That would make them stand out against other team weapons again.
Also, maybe when The allies capture the HMG42, it is only 3 men strong? That would be a way to make losing your HMG les punishing.

As said before, the 222 can’t access its vision buffs because it struggles to get veterancy:
Maybe for the 222, give it a recon toggle at 0 vet and maybe a health buff at vet 2, or reduce its veterancy requirements.
Also, Maybe it could also get a blinding shot ability to let it help out against tanks.

The P4 is fine when it first comes out, but it starts to struggle later on, and losing one is very punishing due to its high cost:
Maybe for the P4, reducing the cost but making BP2 more expensive would not adjust the original timing, but would make the second one come earlier.


25 Mar 2021, 07:23 AM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

...

The answer does not lay in further buffing Ostheer but nerf the opposition.
25 Mar 2021, 07:36 AM
#59
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2021, 07:23 AMVipper

The answer does not lay in further buffing Ostheer but nerf the opposition.


What do you propose then?

I don’t see how changing the other factions will help that the 222 has a hard time scaling or that losing your MG42 is comparatively more punishing.
25 Mar 2021, 08:19 AM
#60
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



What do you propose then?

I don’t see how changing the other factions will help that the 222 has a hard time scaling or that losing your MG42 is comparatively more punishing.

One could delay micro light/light tanks and reintroduce 221 as counter to micro light/sniper and redesign the 222 as a soft counter to light tanks.

support weapon crew by soviets should get the default number of entities instead of 6.
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