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Doctrinal vehicles spawning system

31 Jan 2020, 11:39 AM
#1
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1388 | Subs: 1

If looked at patchnotes, you will find similar goal, but different implementing system.

Patch from 21.07.2015


T-34-85
We decided to take a different approach with Medium Call-ins and have them tie into the core tech tree. This change still require the player to have commander equipped with a T-34-85 Commander ability but also will now require players to build a Mechanized Armor Kampaneya to acquire the T-34-85 medium tank.
- T-34-85 is no longer a call in vehicle
- T-34-85 is now buildable in the Mechanized Armor Kampaneya
- CP changed from 9 to 0

M4A3E8 "Sherman"
Patch from 21.07.2015
We decided to take a different approach with Medium Call-ins and have them tie into the core tech tree. This change still require the player to have the Rifle Company Commander but also will now require players to unlock the Battalion Command Post to acquire the M4A3E8 "Sherman Easy Eight".
- M4A3E8 "Sherman Easy Eight" is now a buildable Tank in the Battalion Command Post
- CP requirement reduced to 0

Source: https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/post/355996


Patch from 20.12.2017


Call-In Units
A number of units have been changed from call-ins to requiring appropriate tech to be built. This will make the following units less dominant in 1 vs 1 scenarios where the punishment for the lack of teching is not as severe. Equally, these units will now arrive to the field earlier in larger game modes, making them more accessible.

- M4A2(76)W "Sherman"
- KV-8
- KV-1
- M10
- Flammenpanzer 38(t)
- Ostwind

Armor Reserves
The addition of this ability will give the commander better late game power through the use of more powerful Shermans and ensure that obstacles cannot stall the commander's mechanized nature in the late game.
- Allows M4A3(76)W tanks to be deployed from the Battalion Command Post; same stats as the M4A2(76)W, can use - Smokescreen ability.

Source: https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/post/645581


Patch from 12.12.2018


Mechanized Group
- WC51 and M3 Halftrack consolidated and available from the Rifle Command.
- M3 Halftrack requires either Platoon or Company Command Posts to be fully unlocked or two officers to be deployed.
-Please see the new USF Tech Changes below for more information.

SdKfz 234 "Puma" from Mobile Defense Doctrine
-Puma now requires Battlephase 2 and is deployed from the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie.
-Puma now costs 270 manpower, 70 fuel

Source: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/281117#Comment_281117


Patch from 10.09.2019


Heavy Tank Call-In Changes for all Factions

We felt the strategy of stalling for a heavy tank call-in without teching stagnated gameplay and was too punishing for players who did tech. In addition we felt that certain heavy tanks came too late in team games. The following changes have been made to all other heavy tanks:
Heavy tank call-ins will now require a reduced amount of CPs but require final tier tech in order to be called in. This includes: IS-2, KV-2, Command Panther, Sturmtiger, Tiger, Pershing, Churchill Crocodile and Churchill AVRE.
Call-in requirements for the heavy tank destroyers Elefant, Jagdtiger and ISU-152 remain at their old values but now also require end tier tech.
The majority of heavy tanks have had their AOE values standardized to deal more reliable damage to infantry. Additional rebalancing has also been done to a number of heavy tanks.

StuG III Ausf. E
The StuG E is being moved into tech like other call-in vehicles. In return, we have reduced the amount of CPs to compensate to encourage teching.
- CP requirement from 7 to 5
- Now requires Battlephase 2

M4A3(105) "Sherman"
Like many other call-ins, the M4A3(105) "Sherman" now requires tech to be built. In return, its CP requirements have been reduced to reward those who tech.
- Now requires Major tech
- CP requirement from 10 to 6

Command Panzer IV
The Command Panzer IV will now require either tier 3 or tier 4 in order to be called in. Additionally there will be some changes to its performance.
- CP requirement from 9 to 7; now requires either Support Armor Korps or Heavy Panzer Korps built in order to be deployed.
- Fuel cost from 125 to 100
- Aura damage reduction modifier from 0.8 to 0.9, as previously intended.

Source: https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/post/789536


As a result:


IMO, it's not good from the UI point of view, when doctrinal units using several mechanics for fixing the same issue (independence from the tech with big reward). I know, they were applied in different period of time, but still. Do you think it's fine?

I think the best option here (except WC51 and M3 for obvoius reason) is to bring all doctrinal vehicles to the system "call-in with tech requirements", which was applied in the september patch for part of doctrinal vehicles.
31 Jan 2020, 11:59 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Problem with tying -ALL- call-in with tech requierments is, you can't really fit certain units into correct time frame otherwise, given some factions tech structure.

Greyhound being prime example, but so is KV-8.

You'd have these units come way too early or way too late otherwise, which would lead to another spiral of buffs/nerfs/attempts to fit them in.
31 Jan 2020, 12:02 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


I think the best option here (except WC51 and M3 for obvoius reason) is to bring all doctrinal vehicles to the system "call-in with tech requirements", which was applied in the september patch for part of doctrinal vehicles.


True about call-in they are currently a mess. Some require building other do not, some require CP other do not and some require both CP and buildings (I am not talking about Super heavies that are separate issue).

Another difference here not mention is that some units can not be call-in if a structure is destroyed and that makes little senses. For instance Ostheer Tiger is always available while Tiger ace/OKW Tiger require a building to exist on map.

Imo most light vehicles/transport vehicles are not so much of an issue but an attempt should be made to at least unify the solution across the same "class".

Simplest unified solution imo would be to add a separate tech for these vehicles (the tech could be tied to tech). That would allow to bring timing closer across modes and fix any tech cost issues that might be (with a cost form 0 to what ever is needed).

31 Jan 2020, 12:11 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2020, 11:59 AMKatitof
Problem with tying -ALL- call-in with tech requierments is, you can't really fit certain units into correct time frame otherwise, given some factions tech structure.

Greyhound being prime example, but so is KV-8.

You'd have these units come way too early or way too late otherwise, which would lead to another spiral of buffs/nerfs/attempts to fit them in.

Apples and oranges.
Greyhound is call-in unit and KV-8 is a unit build from T4 and thus already tied to tech.
31 Jan 2020, 12:25 PM
#5
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

valentine should go to medium vehicle if ostwind is there
8 Feb 2020, 11:22 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Imo the 250/Panzer J system work fine and should be implement for majority of doctrinal vehicles other than premium medium already in last tech.

If addition timing changes are need instead of CP an extra tech could be add more of timing than cost.

In other word all these vehicles built from T0 for a tech cost.
8 Feb 2020, 12:31 PM
#7
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1388 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Feb 2020, 11:22 AMVipper
In other word all these vehicles built from T0 for a tech cost.


Doctrinal stuff should not be in Tiers in the first place. This idea, suddenly, appereared when Relic didn't find better solution to nerf premium mediums in 2015.

I am still for standartsization of doctrinal vehicles around CP + final tech reuirement + reharge time nerf and excluding them from the Tiers. It is more essntial to the game, since it's much closer to how it was designed in the first place for CoH and CoH 2.

Tiers are for core units, not for doctrinal stuff.
8 Feb 2020, 12:59 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Doctrinal stuff should not be in Tiers in the first place. This idea, suddenly, appereared when Relic didn't find better solution to nerf premium mediums in 2015.

I am still for standartsization of doctrinal vehicles around CP + final tech reuirement + reharge time nerf and excluding them from the Tiers. It is more essntial to the game, since it's much closer to how it was designed in the first place for CoH and CoH 2.

Tiers are for core units, not for doctrinal stuff.

Well the instant spawn is what lead Puma to oblivion.

I am do not really mind what solutions are applied as long as the consistent and with as few exception as possible.
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