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A simple buff for stormtrooper mp40

25 Dec 2019, 18:10 PM
#1
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693

I'm not saying that storm mp40 sucks.
They are pretty strong, But I like to make issues where there is none.

#All numbers are in respect on range 0-10

Currently the mp40's near accuracy is 81%. Which mean that, both the Vet3 bonus (+40%) and Tactical assault ability's bonus (+50%) is completely wasted, Gaining only +23.4% at vet3 or tactical advance. The cooldown bonus also accounts for nothing as it only adds little (+3.1%). The other smg's get mp44(+40% from acc and +6% cd)(yes it is classified as smg in the game), ass gren mp40(+40% from acc and +5% cd), commando sten(+30% acc, +11% cd). The paratrooper thompson(+25% acc, +5% cd). (airborn guards are also the type who can't use their vet bonus full 22% out of 30% of their full bonus from)
So very clearly tout of all of these weapons the The stormtrooper mp40 is effected by it's vet bonus the least.

So my solution,
Reduce near accuracy from 0.81 to 0.65(0.648) and increase the near rof multiplier from 1 to 1.25.
This should retain the current dps at vet0 while allowing the mp40 to gain more dps at vet 3.

What does this really do.
Against infantry with less than 1.0 Target size, Absolutely jack shit.
Against targets with more than 1.0 Target size, It shreds them even faster at vet 3.
Also this will give a buff to tactical advance i mean a dps increase of +50 at vet 0 and at vet 3
a bonus of 10%(for comparison the paratrooper tactical advance gives +50 at vet 0 and +39% at vet 3, #note: this is just from accuracy if I include the buff from burst which is always active then it would be +111% at vet 0 and +96% at vet 3, so there is no way the changes to the storm mp40's should seem that ridiculous)

Why do i suggest these changes:
Ost faces Support weapons with greater mobility/survivability. Efficiently clearing out which is the job of stormtroopers. This won't really change how much dps it does to retreating squads either.

25 Dec 2019, 18:40 PM
#2
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2160 | Subs: 3

Currently the mp40's near accuracy is 81%. Which mean that, both the Vet3 bonus (+40%) and Tactical assault ability's bonus (+50%) is completely wasted


I'm fairly sure either >100% accuracy is used to multiply by target size (/RA) or base accuracy is multiplied by target size (/RA) before any veterancy accuracy bonuses are calculated.

Here's an example of how a vet 2+ Obersoldaten Kar 98K at ~20 range (~0.9 x 1.4 = 126% accuracy) can miss on a low target size squad such as Rangers (around 0.5 RA), proving that "accuracy overkill" is cancelled out by low target size / RA.



Whatever the case, the result is the same: the +40% accuracy does help with its full potential on vetted low received accuracy units. And so does the +50% accuracy from Tactical Assault. At least against units that have 0.5-0.65 target size / RA with vet. Tactical Assault is ultimately meant to be used on the move anyway, where the moving accuracy penalty kicks in, which means the +50% accuracy always fully works.

25 Dec 2019, 18:50 PM
#3
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 967 | Subs: 2

With the extra accuracy from vet, storms are only getting "overkill" accuracy against squads with higher than ~.9 RA. There arent a lot of squads past minute 5 or 7 or so that have this high of an RA. There ARE weapon team crews, but most squads are getting nontrivial amounts of overkill accuracy against them as well.

Also, with tactical assault, youre supposed to fire on the move when you pop the ability. So with the moving accuracy multiplier, youre not going to be getting overkill accuracy even with vet and the ability.

Overall, there are indeed situations where youre getting overkill accuracy. But theyre extremely rare and arent likely to be too impactful (vetted storms are going to be shredding high RA squads anyway).
25 Dec 2019, 18:52 PM
#4
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693



I'm fairly sure either >100% accuracy is used to multiply by target size or base accuracy is multiplied by target size before any veterancy accuracy bonuses are calculated.

Here's an example of how a vet 2+ Obersoldaten Kar 98K at ~20 range (~0.9 x 1.4 = 126% accuracy) can miss on a low target size squad such as Rangers (around 0.5 RA).



Whatever the case, the result is the same: the +40% accuracy does help with its full potential on vetted low received accuracy units.


The reason why I am saying that the +50% TA/+40% Vet3 does onthing because storms will never be facing units like rangers, commandos, shocks in 1v1 fights because these squads both out tank and out dps them at the mp40 stormtroopers preferred range. So +50%/+40% is pointless to the out come of those fights. What the whole lowering accuracy does is increase the max dps they do which helps vs squad with 1 or more target size like unveted infantry and support crew.
My main point is that at vet0 the dps difference between storms and pg's are 20.1 % but at vet 3 it is only 3.3% (both in stormtroopers favor), This is not much and pg's have considerably better dps at all other ranges. Which mean vet3 storms aren't really better but actually a lot worse.
25 Dec 2019, 18:58 PM
#5
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 967 | Subs: 2

And just some added information:

Apparently storm mp40s hold a higher DPS than pgren stgs all the way up to 15 range, according to this google doc.
25 Dec 2019, 19:05 PM
#6
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693

Also, with tactical assault, youre supposed to fire on the move when you pop the ability. So with the moving accuracy multiplier, youre not going to be getting overkill accuracy even with vet and the ability.


Storms actually have very good accuracy on the move though (75% compared to 50% of other smg's)
So they actually do get overkill accuracy with vet3 which is currently 28%.



Overall, there are indeed situations where youre getting overkill accuracy. But theyre extremely rare and arent likely to be too impactful (vetted storms are going to be shredding high RA squads anyway).

How is it rare to not get overkill accuracy. The moment you see rangers, mandos, shocks. You have to runaway. For the other targets it's just overkill acc. And with the larger squads of the allied it isn't bad to have less wasted potential dps.
25 Dec 2019, 19:06 PM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2160 | Subs: 3

The reason why I am saying that the +50% TA/+40% Vet3 does onthing because storms will never be facing units like rangers, commandos, shocks in 1v1 fights because these squads both out tank and out dps them at the mp40 stormtroopers preferred range. So +50%/+40% is pointless to the out come of those fights.

It is never pointless, only in head-on 1v1 fights that will rarely occur (never if the player with Stormtroopers is wise enough). In all other circumstances where Stormtroopers are ambushing these squads, or shooting them up on retreat, or fighting wounded ones, both those accuracy bonuses are going to matter. Vet 3 Stormtroopers have a good chance to win vs vet 3 Commandos, anyway.


What the whole lowering accuracy does is increase the max dps they do which helps vs squad with 1 or more target size like unveted infantry and support crew.

But that is a non-issue? Storms already absolutely destroy unvetted or otherwise low RA infantry and support weapon crews in mere seconds. Generally without taking a single casualty. They don't need extra DPS against those targets?


My main point is that at vet0 the dps difference between storms and pg's are 20.1 % but at vet 3 it is only 3.3% (both in stormtroopers favor), This is not much and pg's have considerably better dps at all other ranges. Which mean vet3 storms aren't really better but actually a lot worse.

But this completely disregards the Stormtroopers' camouflage which allows them to ambush other squads under favourable circumstances, and also allows them to not take any fire from other long range sources before opening up, unlike PGrens. Their ambush role is sufficiently different and powerful to distinguish them from PGrens. If you want brute force infantry that can hold their ground against charging assault units or help assault themselves, pick PGrens. If you want to wipe support weapons, line infantry or pick off wounded squads, pick Stormtroopers. Both are excellent in their own roles.


For the other targets it's just overkill acc.

That isn't really true, vet 3 Riflemen have 0.64 RA and vet 3 Infantry Sections (in cover) have 0.62 RA. Assault Engineers at 0.64. Sappers at 0.59. Guards at 0.64. Pathfinders and Paratroopers at 0.71.

With the accuracy overkill starting around 0.6 and up, there are plenty of targets Storms can shred that they won't have overkill (from both the vet bonus and the Tactical Assault bonus) against or at least nothing beyond a mere 5-10%.

And that's even without regarding the moving accuracy penalty. If we include that, assuming I'm doing all these calculations correctly, only 0.8 or larger targets provide overkill accuracy. Very few squads in the late game (bar newly built ones) have such a high target size.


What's also disregarded here is that both bonuses help against any target when said target is retreating (additional 0.4 received accuracy multiplier), as one of the major roles of Stormtroopers is hiding/operating behind enemy lines and picking off retreating squads.
25 Dec 2019, 19:07 PM
#8
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693

And just some added information:

Apparently storm mp40s hold a higher DPS than pgren stgs all the way up to 15 range, according to this google doc.
I know.
25 Dec 2019, 19:20 PM
#9
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693


Vet 3 Stormtroopers have a good chance to win vs vet 3 Commandos, anyway.

You sure about that. I didn't just post this with doing test first you know. vet0 storms actually loose less harder to vet0 mandos compared to vet3 storms vs vet3 mandos. (without cover and under 10 range cus storms and paras have quite a considerable dps advantage over other squads at ranges over 10)



But that is a non-issue? Storms already absolutely destroy unvetted or otherwise low RA infantry and support weapon crews in mere seconds. Generally without taking a single casualty. They don't need extra DPS against those targets?

Still killing them even faster is not a bad thing. Considering how fast USF infantry can kill squads their ttk is not all that impressive.



But this completely disregards the Stormtroopers' camouflage which allows them to ambush other squads under favourable circumstances, and also allows them to not take any fire from other long range sources before opening up, unlike PGrens. Their ambush role is sufficiently different and powerful to distinguish them from PGrens. If you want brute force infantry that can hold their ground against charging assault units or help assault themselves, pick PGrens. If you want to wipe support weapons, line infantry or pick off wounded squads, pick Stormtroopers. Both are excellent in their own roles.

Buddy let me tell you a story. I once had an s-mine field on point with some storm on at nearby piece of cover. A shock squad came in lost 2 models got in range of my vet2 storms and I said supprise mofo! Only to see that shocks(vet0) proceed to obliterate my storms. I was down to 1 model when I retreated and the shocks were down to 2. Gotta say kinda don't see where the ambush is so great is comming from.
25 Dec 2019, 19:28 PM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2160 | Subs: 3

You sure about that. I didn't just post this with doing test first you know. vet0 storms actually loose less harder to vet0 mandos compared to vet3 storms vs vet3 mandos. (without cover and under 10 range cus storms and paras have quite a considerable dps advantage over other squads at ranges over 10)

I tested some engagements right now. Stormtroopers win about 50% of the time. And that's in a head-on fight. If they manage to get behind the squad before opening up, they can even take down a full health Rangers squad.


Buddy let me tell you a story. I once had an s-mine field on point with some storm on at nearby piece of cover. A shock squad came in lost 2 models got in range of my vet2 storms and I said supprise mofo! Only to see that shocks(vet0) proceed to obliterate my storms. I was down to 1 model when I retreated and the shocks were down to 2. Gotta say kinda don't see where the ambush is so great is comming from.

Because Shock Troops have 1.5 body armor that is designed specifically so that they can counter every single small arms weapon and out-brute strength any opposing infantry (except IR STG44 Obersoldaten if those can open up from mid range) in a head-on fight. It is their only role. Not sure how a single anecdote is meant to prove anything anyway.

Use the camouflage to get behind enemy CQC squads. Their models need a lot of time to turn around, having no DPS output, which gives Stormtroopers the advantage they need to win those engagements. Or at least to not get shredded.
25 Dec 2019, 19:40 PM
#11
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693



Perhaps because Shock Troops have 1.5 body armor that is designed specifically so that they can counter every single small arms weapon. It is their only role. Not sure how a single anecdote is meant to prove anything anyway

It's not trying to proove anything. Simply saying their camo isn't all that great against cqc units. #also, what kind of weird mechanic rewards bad decision, I had the better position, better play, even set a trap i made the engage as favorable for me as it could be yet the dumb mechanic rewarded the player who stop while entering the s-mine, hell he could have just been edge capping and not even paying attention yet got rewarded anyway. Kinda feels infuriating when shit like this happens.


Use the camouflage to get behind enemy CQC squads. They lose a lot of time turning around, having no DPS output, which gives Stormtroopers the advantage they need to win those engagements. Or at least to not get shredded.

Yes that works, but requires a lot uncertain things to go your way.
25 Dec 2019, 19:47 PM
#12
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2160 | Subs: 3

Simply saying their camo isn't all that great against cqc units.

As per design. They are a utility based elite unit, not a brute strength one. They are supposed to take certain engagements and excel at those, not go head-on with enemy brute strength elites.


#also, what kind of weird mechanic rewards bad decision, I had the better position, better play, even set a trap i made the engage as favorable for me as it could be yet the dumb mechanic rewarded the player

It's not a weird mechanic, not dumb either. Shocks only have one real role, and it is to out-brute strength other infantry. The counter to Shock Troops is anything that kills infantry that isn't infantry. The few exceptions are overwhelming firepower, a good PGrens bundlegrenade, vetted IR STG44 Obers or Fallschirmjaeger (with a Blendkörper to be safe). Trying to pick a fight even with a somewhat wounded squad of Shock Troops with anything else is simply asking for trouble.
25 Dec 2019, 20:00 PM
#13
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1725

Did you try to ambush shocks with stormtroopers and now you want them buffed?
25 Dec 2019, 20:07 PM
#14
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693


That isn't really true, vet 3 Riflemen have 0.64 RA and vet 3 Infantry Sections (in cover) have 0.62 RA. Assault Engineers at 0.64. Sappers at 0.59. Guards at 0.64. Pathfinders and Paratroopers at 0.71.

With the accuracy overkill starting around 0.6 and up, there are plenty of targets Storms can shred that they won't have overkill (from both the vet bonus and the Tactical Assault bonus) against or at least nothing beyond a mere 5-10%.

And that's even without regarding the moving accuracy penalty. If we include that, assuming I'm doing all these calculations correctly, only 0.8 or larger targets provide overkill accuracy. Very few squads in the late game (bar newly built ones) have such a high target size.


What's also disregarded here is that both bonuses help against any target when said target is retreating (additional 0.4 received accuracy multiplier), as one of the major roles of Stormtroopers is hiding/operating behind enemy lines and picking off retreating squads.

Riflemen, Sections, Sappers can't exactly fight against storms so using Tactical advance on them is always an option during which in vet 3 you will certainly get over 100% acc.
Ass engies, Thomson Paras, Assault Sections are too strong for mp40 storms so you won't fight em head on in 1v1 situations.
I did not disregard retreat wiping. I simply did not mention it. What would the point of that be.

And also compared to the massive 40 dps(47dps on vet 3 for anything above grens RA) per model on the para tactical advance the storms pathetic 23.8(sections and above vet0, vet3 PG and above at vet3) dps per model seems pretty much seems not worth mentioning.
25 Dec 2019, 20:13 PM
#15
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693

Did you try to ambush shocks with stormtroopers and now you want them buffed?

nope. That happened a while ago. It made me kinda loose faith in storms though. What made me whant to see them buffed is this.

https://imgur.com/a/vVjym1j

25 Dec 2019, 20:20 PM
#16
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693


It's not a weird mechanic, not dumb either. Shocks only have one real role, and it is to out-brute strength other infantry. The counter to Shock Troops is anything that kills infantry that isn't infantry. The few exceptions are overwhelming firepower, a good PGrens bundlegrenade, vetted IR STG44 Obers or Fallschirmjaeger (with a Blendkörper to be safe). Trying to pick a fight even with a somewhat wounded squad of Shock Troops with anything else is simply asking for trouble.


It is kinda dumb. It's like saying that you lost an Well microed IS2/Pershing with support vs a completely unsupported and unmicroed KT or JT or something.
25 Dec 2019, 20:48 PM
#17
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1725


nope. That happened a while ago. It made me kinda loose faith in storms though. What made me whant to see them buffed is this.

https://imgur.com/a/vVjym1j



They’re an ambush unit. If you can’t make them work it’s not the unit’s fault. The charts also prove nothing.
25 Dec 2019, 21:03 PM
#18
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 693



They’re an ambush unit. If you can’t make them work it’s not the unit’s fault. The charts also prove nothing.

Ok, could you please tell me where I was wrong with my ambush??? And you can't answer don't do it shocks.

The chart is what made me want to make this thread. Weather it proves anything is up to me.
25 Dec 2019, 22:36 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7223 | Subs: 1

Actually ST need to become 5 men squads keeping the DPS the same or lowering a bit and getting better sight radius.
26 Dec 2019, 00:43 AM
#20
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1271

The only gripe I've ever had since they were given mp40s is that tactical assault was gutted as the mp40's midrange dps is terrible compared to the stg. Most players just retreat when u use the ability which means the unit takes little damage after the unit retreats past 10 range. StGs provided a much more respectable window for decent dps vs retreating units. Meanwhile, stormtroopers get plenty of penalties while on tactical assault - Larger RA and slower movement.

The tactical movement should temporarily restore most of the dps that the stg had at midrange. Any little buff to tactical assault would be welcome, the only units worth using it against are point blank vs support weapons. Using it against infantry (that are paying attention to you) makes the stormtroopers worse off.
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