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Novgorod Outskirts

19 Dec 2019, 15:28 PM
#1
avatar of Tric
Master Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1439 | Subs: 4

Discussion for Novgorod Outskirts
20 Dec 2019, 04:31 AM
#3
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

REVISION 13.0 IS BEING WORKED OUT FROM THE FEEDBACK RECEIVED SO FAR:
A) Bases moved closer to each other.
B) Retreat paths adjusted. This included moving the side buildings, adjusting fences, and adjusting base hedges.
C) The far fuel cutoffs have been changed to munition points. The far fuel no longer has a cutoff. When an enemy won this part of the map, they tend to go to the munition which was cutoff by the far cutoff. So it hurt the wrong team in many games I spectated. Now the enemy can choose to safely get the far TP or the more dangerous MUNI. And get income from either point taken.
D) Since the only cutoffs left were on the road, all red cover roads have been removed.
E) Since the red cover is gone, the dead tank on the VP was removed. It also opened up pathing around the new arches.
F) The fuels were moved slightly more center.
G) Several small fences were removed because they gave RickieRifle eye cancer. Lets all hold hands and say a prayer for him. Sadly some had to be left in to force better retreat paths.
H) Some changes were made around the church for eye candy, sight blocking, and retreat paths.
I) On change was the tank traps just left of the church were changed to a wall trench object. And the mirror to that is now the fireplace that was by the right side house. So each side has green cover about 28m from the side of the church that it cant fire out of.


ADDED SIGHT BLOCKERS


APPROXIMATE RETREAT PATHS (Tested USF only so far)


NEW CHURCH AREA - Added wall and shed left side, Tall blocking walls with archway.
20 Dec 2019, 13:18 PM
#4
9 Apr 2020, 18:39 PM
#5
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

Map will be deleted from the game in any upcoming map updates.
9 Apr 2020, 18:48 PM
#6
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3486 | Subs: 2

Map will be deleted from the game in any upcoming map updates.


F

I’ve actually grown to like this map.
9 Apr 2020, 19:37 PM
#7
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

I’ve actually grown to like this map.

I was looking forward to seeing the new version get some plays. Especially with the changes you suggested.

But I feel it is too late. This map will be permanent veto for most. It had its chance.
21 Apr 2020, 00:11 AM
#8
avatar of Raxzero

Posts: 55

I don't think map is bad at all. It's a very good map even on the current state. Why remove it?
21 Apr 2020, 00:39 AM
#9
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 00:11 AMRaxzero
I don't think map is bad at all. It's a very good map even on the current state. Why remove it?

The map has several things going against it:
- It is a winter map.
- The center is very open. Early game is easy for the enemy to get behind you at the far fuel and get wiped on retreat. Late game is easy to make a few team weapons and hold two VPs (Which I enjoy watching. Saw a game where a player made no tanks and won).
- The cutoffs are too strong and punishing. Winning a fight does not mean you get more resources.
- The VPs are in the corners.
- The fuel cutoffs are on red cover roads.
- Center church is strong.
- The COH2 community. Once a map is vetoed for months at a time, it will usually stay vetoed. Due to the balance patch, we have not been able to update maps for several months.
- There are several new 1v1 maps ready to go that may be better than even the updated version.

This all adds up to it being the least played 1v1 map.

The new version fixes/changes many of these issues and is visually much better looking. But it will at best go from being the least played 1v1 map to the 3rd or 4th least played 1v1 map.

One interesting note is the time of day the map gets played. Pacific rim time sees the largest portion of the play. European time, the least amount of play.

I made the map to test the open movement I like. With sight blockers that let you play cat-and-mouse games with your engagements. But I leaned too much on making it a technical map with harsh cutoffs. And this makes it very not fun to play. Which is the most important component of map.
21 Apr 2020, 00:57 AM
#10
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3486 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 00:39 AMRosbone

The map has several things going against it:
- It is a winter map.
- The center is very open. Early game is easy for the enemy to get behind you at the far fuel and get wiped on retreat. Late game is easy to make a few team weapons and hold two VPs (Which I enjoy watching. Saw a game where a player made no tanks and won).
- The cutoffs are too strong and punishing. Winning a fight does not mean you get more resources.
- The VPs are in the corners.
- The fuel cutoffs are on red cover roads.
- Center church is strong.
- The COH2 community. Once a map is vetoed for months at a time, it will usually stay vetoed. Due to the balance patch, we have not been able to update maps for several months.
- There are several new 1v1 maps ready to go that may be better than even the updated version.


Nexus has an open middle the size of a 1v1 map. Novgorod’s mid isn’t that open imo.

I like the cutoffs, they’re near the base but in reasonable spots and protected by red cover roads so it’s not an open highway for your opponent to come in with a blob.

Corner VPs are a bit far for 1v1 standards but again, Nexus is much worse.

Red cover roads for your opponent are good, you don’t have to deal with them when you’re defending, only attacking.

Church is strong, I think the middle could do without a building or add sight blockers north and south so that it can be attacked reasonably.

There are 1v1 maps ready to go but also 1v1 maps ready to piss off. Novgorod isn’t near being the worst 1v1 map.

I think you could work with some good players to iron out a lot of details and update it when the patch hits. If Arnhem can get an update instead of being deleted, I don’t see why Novgorod can’t,
21 Apr 2020, 10:08 AM
#11
avatar of Raxzero

Posts: 55

^basically what stormjager said.

There are still maps in the map poll like Nexus, Ladoga Karelia, Angoville and Bayeux. Novgorod Outskirts is nowhere near being the worst map IMO. I don't know why everybody thinks that punishing cutoffs and a lot of red cover are bad things, not everywhere in the map should be safe. Sometimes you get wiped, sometimes you wipe units. It's part of the game.

But well, if it's really the least played map then there's nothing to do, I guess. Like you said, it's really difficult to make people play a map they vetoed once again. If community thinks so, our opinions' don't matter so much.
5 Jan 2021, 14:45 PM
#12
avatar of spaget man

Posts: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 00:39 AMRosbone

The map has several things going against it:
- It is a winter map.
- The center is very open. Early game is easy for the enemy to get behind you at the far fuel and get wiped on retreat. Late game is easy to make a few team weapons and hold two VPs (Which I enjoy watching. Saw a game where a player made no tanks and won).
- The cutoffs are too strong and punishing. Winning a fight does not mean you get more resources.
- The VPs are in the corners.
- The fuel cutoffs are on red cover roads.
- Center church is strong.
- The COH2 community. Once a map is vetoed for months at a time, it will usually stay vetoed. Due to the balance patch, we have not been able to update maps for several months.
- There are several new 1v1 maps ready to go that may be better than even the updated version.

This all adds up to it being the least played 1v1 map.

The new version fixes/changes many of these issues and is visually much better looking. But it will at best go from being the least played 1v1 map to the 3rd or 4th least played 1v1 map.

One interesting note is the time of day the map gets played. Pacific rim time sees the largest portion of the play. European time, the least amount of play.

I made the map to test the open movement I like. With sight blockers that let you play cat-and-mouse games with your engagements. But I leaned too much on making it a technical map with harsh cutoffs. And this makes it very not fun to play. Which is the most important component of map.

Is it actually the least played 1v1 map? Damn. I really like this map, my only problem with it is that corner VPs are too far away from where all the fights happen and corner VPs are just people sending one squad each to constantly cap/decap and sometimes a vehicle. I'm really sad to see it go away. I never veto'd this map, never will. It's definitely an above average 1v1 map. There are sooo many trash ones.
5 Jan 2021, 19:33 PM
#13
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

Thanks spaget man! People who do not like this map have had to play it broken for over a year now. A whole year. They will never play it now. No matter how good the rework is. Permanent veto land.

Any new 1v1 maps added (64-bit) will probably be better anyway. So you will soon forget Novgorod hopefully :)
6 Jan 2021, 05:54 AM
#14
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 654 | Subs: 1

The only thing I hate about this map is how the cover dots that preview infantry positions aren't shown sometimes. Some of the cover feels really buggy because of that. Other than that it seems pretty solid. No idea why it's so unpopular.
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