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Thread: How to counter advanced emplacements regiment as ostheer?25 Mar 2016, 11:35 AM It gives some high damage to the emplacements, problem is indeed that mostly of the time you'll get hit by it. (Bofor) In: Strategy Desk
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken25 Mar 2016, 11:08 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 01:01 AMMr.Smith The Command Panther is and has been an issue at least ever since the OKW rework when the CP was made extremely accessible. When Relic concluded OKW rework, it seems that they have left out some rough edges. Without the community pointing these out, I doubt that Relic will ever even consider fixing these issues. Sure, I agree with you that the Command Panther is and has been overshadowed by other, more blatantly-broken commanders and abilities. However, that doesn't stop the Command Panther from also being broken. IT has been already 4 months now, and I believe that it is now finally the turn for the Command Panther to also be rebalanced. I've already diverted enough of my attention to do the analysis carefully, and I've presented my case in the OP, and the subsequent responses. Now, this is where I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make. Do you argue that something in my analysis doesn't hold? Or perhaps that I am drawing a wrong conclusion somewhere? I would appreciate your feedback. However, I cannot see a single good reason not to point out such a glaring balance oversight. The real problem with the CP starts when it reaches vet 2+ and has multiple armour assist. When you have a normal panther + Pz4 or Luch the fun really starts. On it's own it's just an Panther, without the veterancy benefits of a regular Panther for OKW. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: does relic read this section now?25 Mar 2016, 09:19 AM Cuddletronic was atleast for me the face of Relic on the forums. It's sad to see him gone here In: COH2 Bugs
Thread: Walking Stuka often fires into nearby trees24 Mar 2016, 09:32 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 09:30 AMKreatiir Dat feel when positioning your Land Matrass next to a building and firing all rockets into the building Let you feel like you can hit everything Kappa In: COH2 Bugs
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken24 Mar 2016, 09:05 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten Ahhh finally a discussion about one of my favourite units. The commando panther. Now to start to one has to look at all the facts about it. At vet 0 it is an ordinary okw panther with the bonuses from its vet 0 aura (the ONLY bonus the CP gives itself, 2 CPs give each other their aura but it does NOT stack on units that already have the aura, it simply alternates between the 2 CPs auras depending on which one is nearer i assume) The vet 0 aura is +20 sight range, +10% speed, +10% ac/de-celeration. The sight is useful. It can spot for itsself. Its not that much more than useful though as often you use combined tactics in which sight range is already given through other units. At vet 1 it gets blitz, identical to the normal panther. At vet 2 it gets +20% accuracy to its aura and +10% armour, +20% health, +10% weapon rotation speed for itsself. The normal panther gets the same but 40 % weapon rotation speed. So in the end the CP trades in 30 % weapon rotation speed against a 20 % accuracy At vet 3 the CP gains 10% reload, +10% rotation speed, +10% ac/de-celeration Opposed to the nornal Panther getting -30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +30% ac/de-celeration. The CPs aura gains -20% reload. So you trade 20 % reload 10 % rotationspeed and 20% acc amd deexcelleration vs a 20 % reload aura. At vet 4 the CP gains nothing for itself as well as at vet 5 while the normal panther gets +10% range -25% scatter and at vet 5 +25% accuracy on the move, +11 sight radius vs the aura of +5 range and at vet 5 finaly infantry affected too. Now remember, the AURA of the CP does not affect the CP, exception beeing the vet 0 aura, what does this mean? This means that by itsself based on stats the CP is inferior to the normal panther at any vet over vet 2 beeing almost identical at vets below or at that. This also means that a panther and a CP duo at over vet 2 is weaker than a simple double normal panther duo. If you have 3 tanks the setup with the CP is favoured. Now keep in mind that the CP also has substantialy higher vet requirements than the normal panther whilst doing LESS dps from vet 3 on as it only get 10 % reload vs 30%. As a sidenote, there are also -5% reload bulletins for the Panther whilst the CP just has 5% top speed. The CP has a saving grace beeing mark target. It is very strong and alows the CP to stay competitive IF spammed. If used with other units it can be extremly potent. Tldr: The CP is worse than a normal panther by itsself for a higher cost and higher vet requirements. You need approximatly 3 tanks counting CP or 2 tanks benefiting from the aura for the CP to pull ahead of a normal panther. Mark target is what makes the CP better than a normal panther even though tje above mentioned limitations. A vet 5 cp is sick! But though I love the CP and play it a lot I have never had one. I would have many old replays of cps in action but due to patches they cant be watched anymore. I do have 1 on youtube though where i get a vet 4.5 cp thanks to some lucky rng, and guess what? We still loose the game. Also, please take note how long the game is and how little time if it the CP actualy is above vet 3 and how damn lucky i got... https://youtu.be/AWQ1pCMdGIE Seeing as the CP is the commander defining unit i think its role as beeing all together a better panther for higher cost ok. Its by itself quite a lot worse than an ordinary panther for higher cost but it scales with the amount of tanks and it has mark target. As for 4v4... well... there are many units who scale a lot better in those modes, all rocket artillery for example, or a sturmtiger etc... And last but not least. The british command vehicle gives the stronger buffs to infantry and tanks from the get go for only 75 min. It does half all the stats from the carrier but if its an aec or carrier who cares. -30 reload, +30 acc -30 rec. Acc. Good analysis and agree with you after seeing this. I have to say that I have had 2 vet 5 cps in a total of 2 years. Does it get completely broken from that point, o hell yes, hut you are able to kill it most of the times before it reaches those levels. A vet 5 regular panther is many times stronger, except missing the mark twrget In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Vs. Cromwell Spam24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AM Mines and some at in any kind of way could seal the deal easily In: OKW Strategies
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken23 Mar 2016, 13:06 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith It is important to differentiate this. In my OP I asked two questions: 1. Why does the AURA of the Command Tank have to improve with Veterancy? 2. Why do the UNIT STATS (survivability) of a unit that provides a strong aura have to improve with Veterancy. The most important question to ask ourselves is #1; this is what makes this unit fundamentally broken (i.e., a deathswitch). I don't think any of the responses has even touched this question. The aura that the Command Panther gets at Vet3 is already the strongest such aura in the game - With the exception of UKF command vehicle, which is cumbersome to use due to the reduced speed The reason why you never see a vet-5 Command Panther is because OKW will have won the game by the time the CP reaches Vet-3. It's as simple as that. With the Mark Target ability (50% extra damage = 50% extra vet), it's not difficult to grind Veterancy either. Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals). 10 CPs will make the Vet-snowball effect more difficult to get; it still won't make it balanced. Would a pre-nerf Tiger Ace arriving at 32 CP be ok? The Sturmofficer is an amazing utility unit (now that OKW has the munitions to spend it). The main reason you never see this unit in high-level play is the force-retreat debuff (lose that model and all nearby infantry retreats). Other reasons are: - In order to get the best of this unit you need to blob, and blobbing loses games. - In 1vs1, other commanders are better adapted to the more infantry-heavy combat Aura units could, perhaps, unlock utility-based veterancy (throw smoke there etc). As I mentioned in the OP, the longer the game lasts, the more units will have benefited from staying in the aura. The thing is that the Command Panther is already way more survivable than the P4, even at Vet0: - More Armour - Better speed - Better gun, so that it can 1vs1 most flanking units Any survivability veterancy on top of that is multiplicative. How do you finish off a Command Panther with USF/Soviets? Any engagement that you lose while failing to wipe the Command Panther off means extra Veterancy for the CP. With the Vet-Aura, this means extra stats for the entire OKW army. However, this is about question #2. Question #1 is way more important. The Command Panther NEEDS to cost more than Vanilla Panthers because: - It retains the full combat capabilities of a Panther - It has much better sight range than the Panther - It has an aura that allows all your other tanks to spot for themselves. (I'm not touching Mark Target here. Mark Target may as well have been a separate ability in the commander) Besides, the doctrine is very very viable for all gamemodes (and not just for the Command Panther). Can you give a link to the #12 EU finals, can't find it on youtube. Curious if I can find the feeling that it's a deathswitch. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken23 Mar 2016, 12:47 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Mar 2016, 10:00 AMMr.Smith TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly: The Command Panther would be the same as the Sturmoffizier with the breakthrough doctrine, which I dislike. I prefer to see a unit scale by vet and get a better aura by vet than have a 0 vet unit. 1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway. At vet 0 only the strong one is the +20 vision range, at vet 2 you get 20% more accuracy and at vet 3 20% faster reload, which is the strongest vet given by the aura in my opinion. This could be toned down. 2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time? Simple, because the standard Panther also got that increase at vet 2. Would be strange if a Command Panther wouldn't be more or as survivable as the normal one. 3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther? Strong question and mostly of the time it isn't a hard question to make. The command panther would go first, since the veterancy increase + aura increase over time should be build up earlier than your normal panther. 4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue. This is indeed troubling, since you get OpieOP units because of the double buff. The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities: - A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate) - An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching) - A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy (All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop) Do recognize that a heavy tank costs pretty much the same. Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken. It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because: - The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2 - The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2 - This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!) Have a look at the unit veterancy & aura for the Command Panther here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide The million-dollar question I have for everyone is: "Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?" They could better make an overall buff of 10%, so it doesn't makes too much OpieOPness - The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura) - OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther - Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension? - The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura) - OKW extreme late-game would already be extremely powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther - Is there a point in having such a deathswitch hardcoded into the game ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win")? Does this add any sort of strategic dimension? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Grenades22 Mar 2016, 18:15 PM A Sturmtiger is way more effective than the AVRE. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: My opinion re war spoils changes22 Mar 2016, 15:58 PM Jump back to quoted post21 Mar 2016, 20:25 PMOmega_Warrior The benefit of stacking bulletins is nowhere near significant enough to really call an advantage. It's just that without stacking, the benefit of bulletins are completely unnoticeable. This In: Lobby