I agree T34 feels a bit like a japanese kamekazi tank atm. It was actually quite a good tank and I think it was just as good or better than the sherman. Tank battles in vcoh were quite well balanced so I think t34 and p4 should play out similiar to sherman/p4. The P4 should still win easily though if all things are equal.
Putting ram at vet 1 makes no sense. Why would a vetted crew want to ram, and why would you want to risk your vet 1 tank? I think Ram is fine as is, and as Stephenn said, you should only ram if he over-extends.
The best solution i have heard so far is giving it an up-gun to 85mm option(but this should be quite expensive munitions wise, say 150~200). This will actually make soviets slightly more dependant on munitions cos currently soviet always floats munis mid game. The rest of the tank can be left unchanged imo. I think T34 is aimed to encourage combined arms tactics which is great. |
The sniper on hold fire could work, but the su85 still outranges everything you have short of an elefant.
Stats page is down so I am not sure if the pak has the same range as su-85? Regardless, paks miss a lot and su will beat paks 1 on 1 as seen previously.
I agree the core problem here is that russians need other alternatives to german armour. Thing is it is boring to always play in slug fests with su's. People want to win games. And the obvious most effective style of play as russians is to get su85's. I take my hat off to russians who actually use t34's. But lets face it if you have an obvious superior and affordable unit most people will buy it.
The Su-85 gives the russians the option of camping and locking down an area which the germans simply can't do in the same way. I mean lets say i want to "lock down" kolodny centre as germans. I get stugs/p4s and hull them down or just let them overlook the centre. Su-85 can just roll up and attack from max range all day. It will shoot at my stugs without me even seeing them or being able to fire back. I might consider getting a pak43, but it is doctrinal, stationary(vulnerable) and comes late. same goes for elefant and it comes even later anyways. Most games are decided long before any of these counters come out.
Now i'm not saying I dont use flanking/combined arms/smoke cover tactics. Its actually my only option against su-85's. It's just that If i want to follow the defensive, locking down strat i simply cant do it cos it just wont work. Forcing one faction to be more creative with flanks etc is not quite cricket imho. And don't say: use mass infantry or some bullshit like that, cos the russians can easily counter gren/pgren spam AND get su85's.
Relic themselves said the game is "rock paper scissors". If SU-85 is russian's scissors, then what is the german rock? The Elefant isn't really a rock cos it comes at a totally different stage of the game thus being irrelevant to the discussion. Germans have to use alot of small rocks to try and smash the giant scissor.
If the russian just keeps his su-85 supported like i keep my tanks supported I can't advance against him. They just get a maxim/snipers or use incindiary and there goes my infantry.(Not to mention SU-85 snipes infantry and MORE importantly they make infantry lie down when hit so they can't get closer. And i'm not even going to elaborate on reverse speeds and scatter ratios which obviously needs to be adressed.
Company of heroes is and always has been focused somewhat about getting tanks. Sure you had ranger strats, but this was the exeption, not the rule. You always had another choice and was never "forced" to get rangers.
Now the other counters - schreks and fausts. Fine, this can work if well executed, but the problem is you have to advance with infantry first before the su's wreck your tanks. Sure you can try flank but it is very hard on most maps. The su85 just gives the russians a way to just sit and camp and it does not encourage fun, combined arms play.
I saw Stephen countering an SU-85 with riegel mines and mortars, which works wonders, but you still need a doctrine for it and you have to be lucky that he drives over it. I honestly think this is the best counter currently, but a russian player with su-85 solved all his armor problems and doesn't need to worry about fancy mine tactics cos of his range/LOS. This ties into what I said about german players being forced to be extra creative versus a normal non-doctrinal easy-to-use su-85.
Neither faction should be forced to revert to any one specific unit in all games. You cant force germans to always get pgrens, and you cant force russians to always get su85. (When I say "force" i mean you give them an obvious best unit choice in 95% of games). And what german strat forces russians to use smoke (ever)?
(And SU85 outranging everything short of elefant is laughable historically as pointed out earlier.)
TL;DR Obvious "best unit in 95% of games" shouldn't exist. |
I have just updated the site, sorry for the long absence. Prima Games have bought the code off me so they will be taking the site down and implementing it into their strategy guide. When the eGuide is released the site will be taken down.
This |
Hmm ok, well good for him to have made some money. I see Prima Games have bought it, so they can use it in their guide. Wonder when their site will come online?
I really feel game companies should make unit stats available to players and update it as patching goes along rather than leave it up to third parties. I feel some players like me want to know how much dps a specific unit does, how much resources they cost(without having to check in game) etc, in order to make an educated decision on game strats/unit viability.
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Cool site thanks a lot, how often is it updated?
And It seems not to be working today (07/20/2013)
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The T34 has nothing to do with the balance of the SU-85 as the buildings cost too much to get both out and still build from them effectively. Soviet T3 and T4 both need to be viable on their own which is why this is such a touchy issue. If tier 4 can't effectively repel the inevitable armor then the building quickly becomes useless.
Personally I would love for SU-76 to be used more for a general purpose role and have the SU-85 be a more "heavier" expensive counter to armor.
Good points, but I disagree that "both t3 and t4" cost too much. It will still be a choice between the two so that doesnt change anything. I didnt say nerf it to shit so t4 is no longer an option. Remember German T3 and T4 are also expensive, and you have to tech linearly. So a player that wants to go su-85 will still be able to, he might just have to hang on a little longer before getting it(if cost is adjusted) or if reverse is slightly decreased(cost left as is) then he will have it out the same time as now.
SU-85 will still be able to repel german armor, it will just require slightly more babysitting of your su85 than currently where you just reverse into oblivion. I still dont understand why it was even programmed to reverse that fast.
The only reason I mentioned T34 is because russians whine that su-85 is the only viable AT-tank. T3 and T4 can still be viable in their own right if my suggested tweaks are made.
@ darkerdayzud: I agree the stug is kindof not worth it to build atm, specially cos p4 is just a little more fuel. It should get cone visibility imo. |
I have no problems playing vs Su85s...this is all Im saying. Use fog of war ....flank it properly...circle strafe with P4.
Atguns are not bad at all..specially now with 4 men.
SU-85 can camp all day out of range of your pak. Fog of war is great on big maps, but on smaller maps with chokepoints you can't really flank through fow without driving around far from your intended advance point, thereby exposing the flanking tank to at nades etc, isolating it from support(north of kolodny and centre of minsk for example). |
Have you ever tried flanking one in the snow? he just reverses and keeps sniping your p4. And on a map like kolodny its also hard to pull off if he has half a brain he will support his su with infantry and let the su look over the chokepoint. If I lead in with infantry they get surpressed by maxims or he drops incindiary or whatever. He backs up his SU-85 and my p4 will lose all day as long if he has reaction time better than that of a moose.
Its not that it is un-flankable, I have killed many su-85's by circle strafing it but its usually when the soviet is being agressive. When the soviet plays the turtle camping game at the vp's it becomes problematic when all i got is t3. Flanking on some maps are also hard when his su is well positioned and you dont want to risk losing your p4 by getting it at naded etc..
Incresing its cost might "limit" t4 play of soviets slightly, but remember germans dont even have that option at all. Its reversing also shouldn't be that fast its just silly. You don't always have a vetted tank to blitz past it.
I just feel this unit encourages turtle slugfest play by the soviet which is not fun imo. It really doesn't take that much skill to just get semi-decent map control as soviet and once you get su-85 all you do is keep it back, drain vp's and harass. Sure it takes skill, but countering this takes significantly more skill from the german player imo.
And having to go a certain doctrine(elefant/pak43) to counter a non-doctrinal tank is stupid. The doctrinal counter also arrives veeeerry late and games are often lost by that time. Soft counters like schreks/fausts/paks only work if you are facing a noobish or overly agressive soviet player. If he is a turtle type guy you are gonna have a bad day.
One thing I still want to try is to use mortar smoke/smoke bombs(again, doctrinal) to cover an advance. This may well work, If you know exactly where he is hiding his su-85, but it seems like a very complicated counter to a unit that is so easy to use by the soviet. Sure soviets also face challenges to counter german armor but their counters are just normally easier to execute. Eg: ram-one button counter to even best german armor, and su-85-counters all german armor exept the elefant(rarely built cos so laaaaate game), and their zis not only counters armor and is durable but heck it can even barrage infantry. I am not saying russian counters are super easy to pull off, i just think countering su-85's is harder than it should be and must be looked at.
Using SU-85 is really not that difficult if you are a capable soviet player and back it up with AI support, and reverse out of danger. Not to mention once you get 2 su-85's it becomes exponentially harder to break. One unit alone shouldn't require pro skills to counter, it should be the other player's skill that requires equal skill from his opponent to counter.
TL;DR
Tweak su-85 reverse speed or sight range or cost a bit. If necessary buff the t34 and give it a bit more cost so that soviets can't complain that su-85 is "only useful at they got". (I personally think ram is great but hey that might just be me).
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Still, 2 cps and the muni cost is reached before 11/12 minutes right? Winter might be problematic, but the su-85's vision is also reduced.
Yeah, but germans already need munitions for 100000 other things, just feel they also need a vanilla unit with cone visibility
edit: remember its also near fucking impossible flanking an su85 in a blizzard. |
Both factions have access to incredibly useful recon plane callins, Mauser.
Yes, and one faction has early access to a non-doctrinal tank with its own spotter that doesn't cost any munitions. Vision/scouting is very important in this (and any) RTS. |