besides, 2 snipers, 1 volley, bye bye mortar.
There should be a close range magnifier of damage done to snipers by all types of infantry or vehicles, penalizing poor micro or at least making infantry rushes a bit more successful. I've seen many occasions where a puma is on top of a sniper and the sniper is still popping off shots only to get away. That should be an insta kill.
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LOL. You guys are crazy. I like that.
My name is balls. LOL. Random beer can, LOL. |
I think it's pretty clear, but in case it isn't, there's two discussions going on.
First is the CS 1v1. I kind of like it the way it is now. Although I think 75% chance to hit moving sniper is a good compromise to the current 50%. Unless you could implement the idea of giving the CS a higher number if it's his first shot in X amount of time. That rewards the baiting game.
For the sniper spam, I like some of the ideas and they seem to make sense.
1) longer decloak time with subsequent shots and also some sort of exponential decloak penalty for having snipers closely grouped.
2) slower movement while cloaked, maybe even while uncloaked to penalize for frequent retreats
3) negative zeal in groups
4) target tables vs. snipers increased (hopefully regulated when they're spammed/grouped together)
I think a combination of the above still makes sniper spam viable in extreme cases of vet 2 gren play, but gives it a higher risk/reward.
As for counters to T2 vetted gren spam, I rarely see any games anymore that go pure T2. T3 or even T4 comes into play at some point. In fact, I could make an argument that I'm seeing a lot of skpping of T2 and heavier T1. Some to do with playstyle, some to do with how OP dbl or trpl US sniper is.
But you could tweak vet 2 inf costs slightly, more fuel and or MP. Maybe a slight group negative zeal.
But really, bars are pretty much an even fight. And well microed M8 holds its own. Howitzer. Crocs. So how many counters do you need? |
thanks for posting, Kolaris. After reading, I realize how far from pro I really am : ) A lot of the discussion is about making it harder to kill sniper. OMG, that's crazy to me.
I think Budwise suggested 50/75/100 on sniper vs sniper, that seems right to me. But I think the 1v1 sniper war isn't the problem. It's the spamming.
Wehr has a disadvantage in the sense that jeep > bike in a suicide rush. Recon. Smaller unit size.
True wehr can get sniper in t1, but fix to rifle reinforce starts to offset that.
I've seen many pro games via TFN and elsewhere, where US goes dbl sniper and all of sudden negates 20 minutes of dominate Wehr play.
How about decreasing movement speed uncloaked? This would penalize the tight group spam retreat anytime anything gets near you or just spamming retreat to avoid counter snipe. Takes longer to get back on the field so you really need to decide whether you want to stay on and cause damage or take the safe way out.
Also, the dancing sniper is really painful. And I think it should be auto kill with caliope, nebel, etc. I've had many games where a nebel hits a sniper right on the head and nothing.
I think if you increase the ways to kill a sniper, especially grouped together, it makes it prohibitive to spam them because you can lose 680+ mp in a quick second.
But I hate the idea of diminishing the 1 on 1 battle. Need to figure out how to preserve that best as possible, but introduce group penalties. |
^^^ I agree, there has to be some randomness.
My problem is this, I can beat good players (like lev 16) when we both play with no snipers or 1 sniper each. But as soon as other player gets 2 snipers, my win rate is 0%.
Granted, I'm still working on my micro but categorically, if I play against double sniper I lose. Everything else I can handle. So that tells me there's a problem. I know I need to get better, but one strat shouldn't give me a 0% success rate, especially when I can beat same opponent who doesn't use multiple snipers.
I played very competitive game against 2 pros this weekend. Early game went my way, mid game was about even, but by late game they had 3 or 4 snipers, game over. Especially when you play as wehr with smaller unit size. It's instant unit loss or best case prop war.
There has to be a risk/reward going dbl or more snipers, just like there are with other strats. i.e. spam volks you are susceptible to bars/flamers. I think the solution is partial unit design, i.e. longer recloak or reload, negative zeal, movement/cloaking penalties, but also some sort of upkeep. |
I watched the 3 or 4 games on your channel, Tommy.
Here's my impressions.
Jeep yes needs to go back. I think increase damage modifier against sniper (and same for bike). Is there anyway to fix retreat bug on mgs and mortars, etc that can't set up or can't retreat because the gun holder gets killed?
Strafe was ok. The first strafe against you on Langres, you had 2 spread out units in yellow cover. You shouldn't take big damage in a case like that. The last one on semois, yeah, you probably should have taken another death or two, but you got to leave some rng in it.
Strafe can't be an automatic wreck your opponent because there's no warning and no friendly fire effect. If you increase the damage, then you have to add a longer delay from sound to effect or at least add in friendly fire.
In the 2 games someone went dbl sniper, it was really only the last game where you saw the typical abuse. For instance in that last semois game, 2 unsupported snipers are causing multiple half squad volks and grens to retreat. That's the main issue because of wehr smaller unit size.
I liked the idea of group negative zeal, but you guys never fully tested that out. If the main issue is snipers, I think you need to really spam them, forget about who wins the game, just to test ways to counter.
I also like the idea of the officer and maybe KCH becoming more of a sniper counter. Maybe put KCH in T3 (so they can come out quicker) and make them less efficient against inf until fully vetted, but more efficient against snipers right out of the gate. |
I played yesterday. Was really excited to see map ticks back.
But I was having big time stability issues. I don't think it was my online because everyone else in lobby chat was having issues.
Lots of sync errors, crash to desk top or just random drops. Out of 10 games, only had 1 or 2 clean games.
Hope you guys reset the stats again after the beta. That was nice touch to see after all the crap on the other version.
Also, anyway to make random just US/Wehr instead of all armies, or at least give us another random option? |
maybe increase detect range of officer (and jeeps and bikes for that matter).
I don't like the idea of the sniper dying so easy to a jeep or bike. Mass fire from gren, rifle, volks, rangers, etc. sure, that makes sense if you let them get too close, you should pay for it. I like more the idea of still having to get a counter snipe, but maybe making that process easier with longer recloak times and better detection units. Maybe less misses on retreat? Is it 25% chance on retreating sniper? Maybe make it 50% on retreat, 100% if not moving, 85% if moving uncloaked but in cloak mode, 70% if moving in uncloaked mode.
Group negative zeal is good though. It prevents the attack move blobs. Really hurts wehr because of smaller unit size. 2 US snipers are like a free prop war too.
The sniper unit was really a shoot once, relocate, shoot again. It was death to go into a building or to fire twice from the same spot (in real life). I know the game is not real life, but I think you have to use the theory. So really exaggerate the recloak time after the 2nd shot. Make that 3rd shot and subsequent ones really risky if there's an enemy sniper lurking.
Maybe slowing down the movement rate. Reduce the uncloaked movement 10-20% and the cloaked movement 25%.
That will force more micro and if you then decide to blob, that's where the negative zeal kicks in.
Overall, I think the game is pretty perfect. There's the obvious bugs, but balance wise I think about all the great games I've had and have seen. I wouldn't mess with it too much. But clearly I've seen enough games turn to crap once 2+ snipers hit the field. |
Damn this is nice. Hope you get most of these players.
What about Tommy? Not on the list?
Been so long since there's been a whole batch of high level games. I need to keep learning. Meta seems to be changing, maybe just because it's at my level and I don't know counters yet. Curious to see if we see anything new. |
OMG,I actually had hope. They didn't realize the trust system had been taken out. Wow, it's really all I can say.
I will say I've been getting good games lately, at least at my level 13-14ish. So I won't complain too much, but I'll definitely prepare myself for the fact that this is as good as it's going to get. |