Nice videos (even if testing in a vacuum never tells the whole story; for instance, almost all the zook videos had RNG and pentrated more than 60% of the time) but couple points;
I agree, doesn't tell the whole story, but the results are interesting.
Actually, because of the sound not working, it's hard to tell, but there are a lot of deflections in the videos. So the deflection damage is doing a lot of work. If you look closely at the last 2 videos, I turned on the health monitor thing. Basically, you'll see a number pop up on the p4 indicating how much damage it just took.
So for reference, on the last video https://vid.me/r8VE I counted 5 penetration shots, 12 deflections and 3 misses. The 5 penetration shots would be 400 damage, + 12 * 20 = 240 damage = dead p4. So that's a 33% pen rate. With 110 pen at long range vs 234 armor = 47% in best case scenario, I think rng hurt that test case and yet still took around 35 seconds to kill it. I think I turned that health monitor on half way through making the vids, so maybe the first few in each set don't have it on but the rest do. Check it out again and you'll see.
I don't think shreck blobs are OP. I think they are way too omnipresent because Volks are badly designed. Regardless of balance, the best AT weapon in the game doesn't belong on a cheap mainline infantry, even moreso because it requires no tech unlock. It leads to a stale metagame where the same multi-purpose unit is always fielded and always upgraded because it has almost no downsides. I dislike playing against OKW mainly because of that.
I half disagree. The downside is that they are weak vs other infantry squads. I agree that they are omnipresent, but that's under the, in my opinion, false premise that it's the only way to play them.
For example, here is vet 3 cons walking up to vet 5 volks with schrek and engaging at mid range with no cover and no other micro:
https://vid.me/yOsO
Like you said above, it's a test case in a vacuum, and I'd probably need more just to eliminate some RNG. Imagine the above video with riflemen + bars, or IS + brens.
The results are decently similar on medium tanks; I'd like to see what pitting them against heavier armor does. Say shrecks vs Pershing/Churchill and zooks vs Panther/Tiger. And then for fun's sake 5-6 shrecks vs IS-2.
Sure, I can do that. You want the same squad composition? 2 rifles with double zooks vs and 2 volks with schreks vs?
Here is 5 volks squads with schreks vs an IS-2 with mg upgrade:
https://vid.me/UOrN
And zooks are US. As I've said, I believe WFA factions benefit from power creep in their design and are allowed to get toys that are just better than a lot of what other factions field. Not that I think factions should be homogenous, but the fact that these things work doesn't mean I think they should work, if I express myself correctly.
Not sure what you mean in that last sentence. In terms of other allied factions, I think piats are highly underrated. I could make some vids using them too if you'd like. Soviet's don't really have anything other than ptrs, but I don't really think they need it. They can get AT guns right away, plus su-76s being really damn good now.
Also at least zooks require an upgrade and dual zook rifles are fairly impotent against infantry. You are severely hamstringing your AI capabilities if you don't give rifles upgrades. They also cost more than volks, and OKW's chronical MP float means that they can more easily afford elite infantry on top of shreck volks, US doesn't always have that luxury. That's why zook blobs are way less common than shreck blobs.
That's fair, I did some tests, and double rifle zooks even out with volks with schrek at mid range, but will lose usually at long range.
Also, US doesn't need elite infantry, okw does, that's why obers are non-doctrinal. I'd say zook blobs are less common because people think zooks are trash, not to mention is just being a bad strategy in general, in my opinion. |
Just some input of the videos above - the cost difference between 2 volks with shreks and 2 rm with double zooks should be considered, as well as the cost and armor difference of the targets. It makes it harder to draw conclusions when comparing them in a vacuum like that.
Agreed. Also the fact that there is zero micro happening in these videos, like whitesky mentioned, a tank probably wouldn't just sit there and fight an AT squad head on like that and not attempt a retreat.
Here are the costs:
double rifleman + double zooks = 560 mp and 200 munitions
double volks + schreks = 500 mp and 180 minitions
okw p4 = 360 mp + 150 fuel 640 health with 234 front armor and 80 rear
sherman = 340 mp + 110 fuel 640 health with 160 front armor and 80 rear |
I'm sure if you have the p4 stand there and forced to duke it now, the AT infantry would win.
From a team game perspective, if i have 2-3+ whatever number of volks, I can simply move in, unload a volley of shreks full frontal armor penetration and quickly retreat if there are a lot AI around.
With zooks, I'm more likely to bounce shot because the range/low pen. If i could, i'd rather trade 2 zooks for 1 panzershrek.
Again, this is just a team game perspective where all of a sudden a second enemy or third enemy force shows up, and by the time you react, at least one vehicle is gone.
For 1v1, i don't think it's that big an issue.
So i don't mind volks having double panzershreks. make their pen/range same as zook.
So the key difference is the surprise shreks can do. Pop around a corner, shoot a volley, and retreat to forward base. Zooks can do that too... but a lot less effective. They need to be in closer range to be effective which defines its role well as defensive. I just think the panzershrek is both offensive and defensively capable.
I think that's a fair point, but I'd say it goes both ways. Let's take your example, 3 squads of volks schrek turn the corner and shoot at a sherman, that's a 360 damage, little bit more than half health, so you retreat, and this is assuming all shots hit.
Counter example, 3 rifle squads with double zooks turn the corner and find an okw p4 and fire, so that's 6 bazooka shots, let's say half pen, that's 3 * 80 = 240 damage + 3 * 20 deflection damage = 300 total damage, so about 45% ish life. The p4 will still want to retreat, difference here, maybe one of the rifles is vet1, and attempts to snare, if it hits, p4 is screwed, if not it gets away and we're back to similar outcomes as with the volks and sherman.
I would argue, volks need that shock value because OKW doesn't have a non-doctrinal snare and raketens have relatively low range compared to other AT guns, so it kind of fits with their army composition.
And yes I'm talking from a team game perspective as well. |
@ZeaviS: since shrecks deal more damage and have vastly more pen than zooks, that situation can only possibly work if the zooks shoot at the P4's rear all the time. They have less than 60% chance to pen from the front IIRC. Whereas shrecks have a close to 90% I believe. And shooting in the rear is a very rare situation if your opponent doesn't suck. In a slugfest from the front, which is what happens in actual games, the dual shrecks are far more dangerous.
Nope, it's from the front. Here I made some videos for you.
https://vid.me/jYE2 okw p4 with no mg upgrade vs 2 rifle squads with double zooks
https://vid.me/SslM same as above
https://vid.me/Bi8F same as above except now the okw p4 has the MG upgrade, wanted to see if it made a difference
https://vid.me/r8VE same as above, okw p4 with mg
Now here are some vids of 2 volks with schreks vs a sherman:
https://vid.me/hTzs a sherman with no mg using AP rounds
https://vid.me/GqJJ same as above except sherman is using HE rounds
https://vid.me/HEYx same as above
https://vid.me/OY61 back to sherman with AP rounds, volks got RNGed pretty hard here
https://vid.me/c1Sd same as above
You'll notice that all the vids are around the same length, between 30 and 40 seconds ish, except for that one video of the volks getting hit by the RNG gods, and that one with the HE rounds.
Let me know if you need more video evidence or if there are any other scenarios you want me to try out.
Just for fun, I made this video, this was the first try:
https://vid.me/k8JD 4 double zook riflemen squads against a king tiger with no mg upgrade.
Volks actually have decent AI with shrecks. Not great, but about as good as conscripts. Keep them in cover and, thanks to their toughness, they can stay in the fight and rake in some kills. That's on top of their good grenade. The trade-off to get it isn't very big, unlike say PGrens with shrecks that lose 50% of their already so-so AI damage.
And I sure hope upgraded AI infantry with vet kills a hugely versatile, cheaper infantry. OKW has 5 flavors of elite infantry, counting doctrines, and their vehicles have no lack of AI power between the Luchs, P4, Stuka and KT. Not sure what this has got to do with the topic, but Volks aren't mean to beat rifles on their own.
It's relevant because the thread is about volks blobs being op. But they aren't, because even stock infantry can kill them when they are equipped with schreks, you can test it yourself, even cons beat them pretty handily when both are max vet. I just don't think it's that big of a deal to handle. I'm not trying to say volks blobs are bad, I'm trying to say they are not OP.
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That's in theory.
In practice, the zook's pen is so shit that even against P4 it has trouble penetrating front armor (that's before vet and stacked bulletins). Anything Panther or bigger can safely ignore all but an entire blobful of zooks. Shrecks easily pen all but the very heaviest ally armor (IS-2, Churchill) on the front quite easily. Higher damage means little if you can't actually penetrate and use it.
2 zooks also sink a squad's DPS more than 1 zook or 1 shreck, so a rifle squad with 2 zooks will have mediocre DPS even at vet 3 against infantry. Wouldn't be surprised if vet 5 Volks with shrecks win vs vet 3 rifles with dual zooks.
And zooks are on one allied faction, behind an unlock. Soviets make do with PTRS which is doctrinal and sucks against anything but 222s, and british has the PIATs which you have to actively micro so they hit the broad side of a King Tiger, and even then it's a coin flip. Ostheer gets shrecks on a 340 MP 4 man tier 2 squad in an upgrade that changes their role dramatically, so that's very fine. OKW gets shrecks on their 250 MP 5 man mainline infantry and it's not even locked behind tech so there's no reason not to have every Volk squad with one as soon as you get the muni. It's not a role change, it is a straigth upgrade that allows Volks to be the most versatile infantry in the game, even more than Guards whose entire thing is to be versatile.
Handheld AT weapons are not balanced except by cost, and not very well at that. Perhaps by design, Shrecks are better than allied options in 90% of situations. There's a very good reason shreck blobs are a thing, while PTRS and PIAT blobs are never seen and zook blobs only work against bad players. The panzershreck is uncontestably the king of handheld AT. As such, it should be a specialized weapon with drawbacks. The Ostheer shreck acts like that. The OKW shreck doesn't.
In theory and in practice. I can show you videos of 2 double zook riflemen killing an okw p4 just as quickly as 2 schrek volks. It works. Not to mention rifles have a snare.
The point is really that, when volks have schreks, their AI isn't that great, so that's your opportunity to win infantry engagements. I testws double zook riflemen against a schrek volk and they lose at long range but win more often than they lose at mid range, I have video proof. Now imagine double bar vet 3 riflemen against volks, they maybe lose a model in that engagement. Same with IS with double brens, even vet 3 cons, etc.
Like I said, before, more than happy to hop in a game and test this with anyone. I'll admit I'm wrong if you can show me. I even have some video of some of these matchups I tried in the cheatmod. |
well your wrong, but i like your attempt to reason it
Care to elaborate? I'm more than happy to hop on a game with you and test if you wish. |
Reason why I used the word "reasonable" and not "out right beat". But that exactly the problem, for me to gain a "advantage"I would need to spend 150 m and 15 fuel + 60 mun at the rate 280mp per rifle, at the cost of 28 to reinforce.
If I "won" a engagement with rifle+bar engagement I will not doubtfuly lose a single model in BEST case scenario, not accounting the lucky instant Rng K.O of a model by shrecks shot and the destruction of cover usually needed by allue squads to remain vaible.
Typically since the only unit that can at engage at long range as allie is the IS, rifle need to close the gap in "mid" range which often results in a lost of a model to get in position. Not only the mp bleed of rifles and IS high, even a "victory" engagement is costly.
NOW all that is FINE since we are going with the whole "Nazi Germany super army" theme that we are fanscinated now a days (which of course comes at the cost of reality).
The problem is to counter infantry play is the usage of vehicles and it becomes a huge problem with you equip a rather cheap squad, tier 1 and most importantly (problem is not the weapon, it's how many available) the spambility of the the weapon with no real downside.
Unlike a popular counter-argument (barely qualifies but it's there) the zook has clear disadvantages, mainly lack of damage (80dmg vs 120 dmg) lack of range and most importantly lack of penetration, which is key.
As it stands there is no real reason to build any other type of unit the volks + armor vehicles your choice due to cost per effect meta. Not they are "great" (unless your referring to super volks of days past) But cost effective...
Thus the superman comment, lack of any real down side, cheap, available early and reasonably effect all target types seems super to me...
Well not exactly. Baring the RNG of schreks, riles beat volks without upgrades at all ranges, assuming equals levels of vet and even more so when rifles are vet3. Bars and lmgs just make it even more favorable. I'd be more than happy to test this out with you if you wish.
The counter argument with zooks is fair because you can buy 2 for 100 munition, where a single schrek costs 90. So while the pen is less, you're doing 160 damage vs 120 and they fire faster, and they are on a squad that is more durable. |
I find it kinda ironic that the volks act more like super soldiers then obers considering they can engage all types of targets and reasonably win. I would even argue the 5 durable squad acts more like a train frontline soldier Gren from the wermarcht.After all my history Prof always said, after seeing past the propaganda of the time period the only real difference between the VOLKSstrum and VOLKSgrendier is the uniforms and at least one guy in the squad knows what's he's doing, lol.
They aren't that strong with a schrek vs infantry, rifles and ISs will still beat them, especially with upgraded weapons. |
The biggest problem with the T-34 is ram being useless. Fix ram and you'll see more T-34s. |
Spacebus,
Just wanted to post an update. The fix you deployed seems to be working, the mod tools boot up fine now. Thanks! |