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Bring B4 howi back to tank hunter tactics

17 Sep 2019, 19:53 PM
#21
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 15:56 PMKirrik


Played this commander countless times, I know what I'm talking about. vehicle camo is stupid gimmick fitting mostly for stealth recon for T-70. It's useless for actual tank destroyers because it renders them stationary and reduces rotation to extreme degree. Useless against both panthers and superheavy TD's

And PTRS conscripts being dedicated AT squad is sick joke, those PTRS are useless against tanks ever since their deflection damaged was nerfed several times over.

This commander is partysan tier at best.


This is all completely wrong, and screams that you've never really tried the Commander. I use it regularly in 2v2s

Su85 is already bad against super heavy TDs, why would you be using it against them? Ram with a t34, call in il2 AT strike, and that thing is screwed. I've killed 2 elefants in one game before just like that

Ptrs cons are amazing. The fact that you think their terrible is truly remarkable. You get 3 ptrs, so it's 120 dmg if all 3 penetrate. The snare is the real power though, 360 damage and a dead engine.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 16:53 PMGrumpy


This was my experience with it. Unless the Panther is moving in your firing arc you will lose getting the first shot in, and having to toggle the ability and then start firing makes you much more likely to lose the SU85.


If you keep some tank hunter conscripts near the su85, that panther is screwed if it tries to rush you. Camo the cons near the su85, put on hold fire, and ambush. Ptrs cons are very very very good
17 Sep 2019, 20:03 PM
#22
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

ML-20 (and LEFH) are boring.

B4 is at least exciting.

Yeah yeah, RNG blah blah, sod off. I want to have fun with my commander picks and not just gain a 5% marginal advantage.
17 Sep 2019, 20:09 PM
#23
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 16:24 PMGrumpy


Find the patch notes yourself, since your insisting that it didn't change. Post your playercard while you're at it. I don't care about the ranking, but am pretty sure it will show axis-only.

Anyone who ever used it knows that it used to wipe arty, team weapons, take most of the health of a truck, and would finish heavies if you could catch them repairing. Paying 250 munitions to do about 200-300 damage (AND A STUN OMG) to a tank IF they don't pay attention to it for 3 seconds or more isn't effective. The standard IL2 bombing run would be an improvement over it.



Seriously? You should be the one to prove it, especially since you already have the numbers wrong

It doesn't cost 250 munitions, it costs 180. "Anyone who ever used it"...... yeah okay....

17 Sep 2019, 20:32 PM
#24
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

I don't want to see more B4's ingame, it's a stupid unit concept.

A Sturmtiger / AVRE that can fire from enormous range is not fun gameplay at all and goes against the whole point of a CoH game.
17 Sep 2019, 20:38 PM
#25
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

I don't want to see more B4's ingame, it's a stupid unit concept.

A Sturmtiger / AVRE that can fire from enormous range is not fun gameplay at all and goes against the whole point of a CoH game.


Bro I'm gonna tell BaoLiang you said that >;[
17 Sep 2019, 23:01 PM
#26
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947



Seriously? You should be the one to prove it, especially since you already have the numbers wrong

It doesn't cost 250 munitions, it costs 180. "Anyone who ever used it"...... yeah okay....



So I had the price (180) wrong. The damage on it was changed. The patch notes don't show it, but before the community balance team there were always changes that didn't make the patch notes. I wasn't the only one who noticed it. There was a thread about it.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/31518/ptab-strike-vs-stuka-strafe

One of the clips shows the old bombing run one-shotting a Tiger that had about 80% health. Another shows it wiping several squads.
One of the later clips shows it taking a bombing run and two AT grenade assaults to kill a Panther. Is youtube wrong?

Playercard?
17 Sep 2019, 23:24 PM
#27
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:01 PMGrumpy


So I had the price (180) wrong. The damage on it was changed. The patch notes don't show it, but before the community balance team there were always changes that didn't make the patch notes. I wasn't the only one who noticed it. There was a thread about it.


You had the price wrong by 70 munitions, and you asserted it without any proof while telling me I needed to get some. You still don't have proof the damage was changed, but you're asserting it anyway...

The strike can absolutely still do that damage, it just depends on how many bombs hit. You also seem to think that stunning a tank is not valuable, which is ridiculous. Gives you more time to snare or flank.

Btw that video is meaningless if you don't have a current one to compare it to....

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:01 PMGrumpy
Playercard?


You don't show yours and it's irrelevant to this conversation, stop acting like a 5 year old
17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PM
#28
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



This is all completely wrong, and screams that you've never really tried the Commander. I use it regularly in 2v2s

Su85 is already bad against super heavy TDs, why would you be using it against them? Ram with a t34, call in il2 AT strike, and that thing is screwed. I've killed 2 elefants in one game before just like that

Ptrs cons are amazing. The fact that you think their terrible is truly remarkable. You get 3 ptrs, so it's 120 dmg if all 3 penetrate. The snare is the real power though, 360 damage and a dead engine.



If you keep some tank hunter conscripts near the su85, that panther is screwed if it tries to rush you. Camo the cons near the su85, put on hold fire, and ambush. Ptrs cons are very very very good


Ram+PTAB does not work on large maps genius and can be prevented by just single mainline squad with faust
PTRS cons are garbage because PTRS are useless unless you have 4+ squad blob but even then you will do no alpha damage and anything above 180 armor will escape. Grenade assault is too clunky and will never work unless vehicle was either ambushed or already snared, heck even snared vehicles will escape it without sprint and lower model count decreases damage way below that of satchel
Honestly that entire commander is joke at tank hunting compared to ISU+Mark+Guard or Guard+Mark+34-85

This commander is rarer in 4v4 than Partysan doctrine, thats say a lot about it's viablity even as a meme
17 Sep 2019, 23:59 PM
#29
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947



You had the price wrong by 70 munitions, and you asserted it without any proof while telling me I needed to get some. You still don't have proof the damage was changed, but you're asserting it anyway...

The strike can absolutely still do that damage, it just depends on how many bombs hit. You also seem to think that stunning a tank is not valuable, which is ridiculous. Gives you more time to snare or flank.

Btw that video is meaningless if you don't have a current one to compare it to....



You don't show yours and it's irrelevant to this conversation, stop acting like a 5 year old


My player card is attached to my profile. I asked for yours because you sound like one of the players that insists the maxim is the best MG in the game. Finally, you didn't like that the old replay shows you wrong, so you're reverting to insults. We're clearly done here, have a nice day.
18 Sep 2019, 00:11 AM
#30
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik


Ram+PTAB does not work on large maps genius and can be prevented by just single mainline squad with faust
PTRS cons are garbage because PTRS are useless unless you have 4+ squad blob but even then you will do no alpha damage and anything above 180 armor will escape. Grenade assault is too clunky and will never work unless vehicle was either ambushed or already snared, heck even snared vehicles will escape it without sprint and lower model count decreases damage way below that of satchel
Honestly that entire commander is joke at tank hunting compared to ISU+Mark+Guard or Guard+Mark+34-85

This commander is rarer in 4v4 than Partysan doctrine, thats say a lot about it's viablity even as a meme


I hadn't thought about mark target, but it with tank traps and guards would make this an okay commander. I was able to use grenade assault against Brummbaer's with some success (at least in driving them off). I had good luck with it on anything below a Panther. The only T3 armor that I was able to kill was when my teammates Guards helped (this was in a 4v4).
18 Sep 2019, 00:14 AM
#31
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik


Ram+PTAB does not work on large maps genius and can be prevented by just single mainline squad with faust


Not true. A single mainline with a faust will not stop a t34. You need to hit it with something else first, just like any medium tank.... Forgetting the 75% threshold for engine damage?

Only hard to use on big maps if the target is directly in the middle. Even then, the bombing run covers a huge area...

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik
PTRS cons are garbage because PTRS are useless unless you have 4+ squad blob but even then you will do no alpha damage and anything above 180 armor will escape.


Again not true at all. 1 squad by itself does 120 dmg with penetration, and they reload much faster than zooks or shrecks

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik

Grenade assault is too clunky and will never work unless vehicle was either ambushed or already snared


Good thing the upgrade comes with camo....

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik
heck even snared vehicles will escape it without sprint


Good thing you get to keep hoorah.... And if you're any good at ambushing you don't need it anyway. Just use hold fire to give the proper surprise

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik
and lower model count decreases damage way below that of satchel


Even if it's only 4 models it will still do same damage as satchel (240) without the risk of hurting your own squad. And it has more range, and you have camo, and the squad is cheaper to build/reinforce.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:43 PMKirrik
This commander is rarer in 4v4 than Partysan doctrine, thats say a lot about it's viablity even as a meme


Actually that says a whole lot of nothing. You know what else is rare in 4v4? Skill. Like i said I use it in 2v2s all the time

18 Sep 2019, 00:18 AM
#32
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:59 PMGrumpy

finally, you didn't like that the old replay shows you wrong,


No it doesn't. You posted a replay of the ability being amazing and then you claimed (without any proof whatsoever) that it's been nerfed. It hasn't

You were giving me attitude from the very beginning so don't try to play victim now. You're "done here" because you've been making stuff up the whole time

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2019, 23:59 PMGrumpy

My player card is attached to my profile. I asked for yours because you sound like one of the players that insists the maxim is the best MG in the game.


No it isn't. How about instead of assuming what I think, you go read through the maxim thread and find out.
Spoiler: you're wrong
18 Sep 2019, 01:07 AM
#33
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



Not true. A single mainline with a faust will not stop a t34. You need to hit it with something else first, just like any medium tank.... Forgetting the 75% threshold for engine damage?

Only hard to use on big maps if the target is directly in the middle. Even then, the bombing run covers a huge area...



Again not true at all. 1 squad by itself does 120 dmg with penetration, and they reload much faster than zooks or shrecks



Good thing the upgrade comes with camo....



Good thing you get to keep hoorah.... And if you're any good at ambushing you don't need it anyway. Just use hold fire to give the proper surprise



Even if it's only 4 models it will still do same damage as satchel (240) without the risk of hurting your own squad. And it has more range, and you have camo, and the squad is cheaper to build/reinforce.



Actually that says a whole lot of nothing. You know what else is rare in 4v4? Skill. Like i said I use it in 2v2s all the time



What 120 damage you're talking about? You know PTRS Pen stats? You realize grenades also dont always pen for full damage, you realize even with oorah you cant just sprint and grenade assault because reservsing vehicle will cancel grenade windup animation? Furthermore grenade full damage is 50 and 40 with deflection, its always worse than satchel in every situation

A single shot from anything and faust makes ram useless and you'll never reach those elefants/JT's if enemy player does not misplay badly, especially if he spots PTRS knows and knows you're doctrine pick

All I'm seeing a person who probably never played doctrine much and just theorycrafts scenarios that improbable to pull of in actual game.
18 Sep 2019, 01:44 AM
#34
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 01:07 AMKirrik


What 120 damage you're talking about? You know PTRS Pen stats? You realize grenades also dont always pen for full damage, you realize even with oorah you cant just sprint and grenade assault because reservsing vehicle will cancel grenade windup animation? Furthermore grenade full damage is 50 and 40 with deflection, its always worse than satchel in every situation

A single shot from anything and faust makes ram useless and you'll never reach those elefants/JT's if enemy player does not misplay badly, especially if he spots PTRS knows and knows you're doctrine pick

All I'm seeing a person who probably never played doctrine much and just theorycrafts scenarios that improbable to pull of in actual game.


Lol it's not theories buddy, you just have to stop playing 4v4. It actually works in the game modes that are actually balanced...

Satchel damage is 240 btw, so no, it does not do more damage than AT assault in "any situation". Again, that's not true

Idk why you come to the balance section and talk about 4v4. 4v4 Gameplay doesn't even closely resemble that from 1s and 2s, where balance is actually possible...
18 Sep 2019, 02:19 AM
#35
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



Lol it's not theories buddy, you just have to stop playing 4v4. It actually works in the game modes that are actually balanced...

Satchel damage is 240 btw, so no, it does not do more damage than AT assault in "any situation". Again, that's not true

Idk why you come to the balance section and talk about 4v4. 4v4 Gameplay doesn't even closely resemble that from 1s and 2s, where balance is actually possible...


Satchel can be thrown even with a single model to deal full damage, you'll guaranteed that 240 damage compared AT grenades that harder to pull off and depend on number of model in one of the most frail squads in game, you'll be getting more damage from grenade assault only during ambush or forum theorycrafting

So far I have not seen a single argument from you on why this doctrine isnt dogshit aside of "lul 4v4" despite the fact that 4v4 is the place for meme tactics and doctrines. And I didnt see this doctrine in month even in that casual mode.

18 Sep 2019, 02:24 AM
#36
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

ML-20 (and LEFH) are boring.

B4 is at least exciting.

Yeah yeah, RNG blah blah, sod off. I want to have fun with my commander picks and not just gain a 5% marginal advantage.


+1
18 Sep 2019, 02:30 AM
#37
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2019, 02:19 AMKirrik


Satchel can be thrown even with a single model to deal full damage, you'll guaranteed that 240 damage compared AT grenades that harder to pull off and depend on number of model in one of the most frail squads in game, you'll be getting more damage from grenade assault only during ambush or forum theorycrafting

So far I have not seen a single argument from you on why this doctrine isnt dogshit aside of "lul 4v4" despite the fact that 4v4 is the place for meme tactics and doctrines. And I didnt see this doctrine in month even in that casual mode.


I mean you went the entire ostwind thread ignoring arguments and evidence so what else is new?

You keep saying "only if you ambush". So ambush!!!! It comes with the fucking upgrade, it's not that difficult to do...

Meanwhile you can see ptrs panels a mile away, and the snare has shorter range...
18 Sep 2019, 02:44 AM
#38
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



I mean you went the entire ostwind thread ignoring arguments and evidence so what else is new?

You keep saying "only if you ambush". So ambush!!!! It comes with the fucking upgrade, it's not that difficult to do...

Meanwhile you can see ptrs panels a mile away, and the snare has shorter range...

Could you please keep on topic? Its very hard to read through so much offtopic, i dont really care if you use your whole post to insult other person, just prove your point.

To the thread:
4v4 are the hardest to balance but at least a little effort is appreciated, after 1v1 balance is done, 4v4 can be taken into account.
B4's are good more on 4v4s than 1v1s but if we manage to balance it for 1v1's, a tank hunter tactics with a revamped direct AT shot could be interesting. A pseudo Pak43 clone, but SU style.
18 Sep 2019, 03:12 AM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Could you please keep on topic? Its very hard to read through so much offtopic, i dont really care if you use your whole post to insult other person, just prove your point.


I have been talking about tank hunter tactics in every post. The Commander is just good enough, does not need a buff/nerf/change. And we certainly don't need more of the b4. The b4 is fun, but horribly balanced
18 Sep 2019, 03:40 AM
#40
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



I mean you went the entire ostwind thread ignoring arguments and evidence so what else is new?

You keep saying "only if you ambush". So ambush!!!! It comes with the fucking upgrade, it's not that difficult to do...

Meanwhile you can see ptrs panels a mile away, and the snare has shorter range...


Penal snare is actually easier to pull off, unlike grenades it will always go off once you start animation. Also you're not ambushing anything of value once enemy sees you have PTRS cons, it does not take 200 IQ to send infantry ahead of tanks especially since PTRS cons cant do anything to infantry and you're giving up on shocks and guards by selecting this doctrine.

Anyway I'm done with you, you can pretend it's good doctrine all you want I think everyone who played it would rate it as meme or gimmick at best and the fact thats it's one of the least seen doctrines in the entire game speaks louder than theorycrafting
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