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Convince me that it's a bad idea with a 1 sniper limit

22 Jan 2019, 09:43 AM
#21
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1




I think a lot of players get overly focused on the snipers and a desire to kill them outright.


My personal oppinion is quite the opposite. If you ignore them, they will do what they are supposed to do: bleed you out. Constant pressure with alot of flanks is the way to go.
I agree its not fun, and alot of rng involved when the sniper retreats
22 Jan 2019, 09:52 AM
#23
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1388 | Subs: 1



I agree that it's not something that should be overdone, but technically non doctrinal limit allready applies to another unit - The KT.


You are right, but Tiger II is exception, which was even moved to call-in section (with some UI issues). Also, it has restriction for other reason - it is super heavy, and like other super heavies limited to one.
22 Jan 2019, 10:04 AM
#24
avatar of Joshua85

Posts: 606



You are right, but Tiger II is exception, which was even moved to call-in section (with some UI issues). Also, it has restriction for other reason - it is super heavy, and like other super heavies limited to one.


Yes you are not wrong. But I think my argument about snipers is still warrented, although I think other people have also put some pretty good ideas into play about making it more of a recon unit.

I could also see a situation where the sniper would not be able to autofire when you were attack moving it around, and rather you had to actively target a unit for it to fire. Something like the hold fire just being permanently activated. This would make them a lot more micro intensive, but probably also warrant a drop in the price.
22 Jan 2019, 10:20 AM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

Yup I'm writing this while I'm salty and tilted :rofl:

But seriously though, I've had four matches tonight where people have gone with at least two snipers at the same time. I've won some of them and lost others, but what they all had in common is that it's such an unfunny and annoying thing to fight against, especially for factions with small squad sizes.

I know that they take a lot of micro and are big investments, but honestly a-moving two snipers around the map is not that much more difficult and can take an enormous strain on the opponent with really agressive deep dives.

I would never dream of going double sniper because it sets you up for a really boring rigid play of plucking away opponents manpower at a low effort double rate.

After playing against this match after match after gardening match all night I really think they should have a limit of 1 on the field at the time for each player.

But perhaps I'm just spitting salt here :*(


Problem with sniper is faction design, not really the sniper itself. But I agree with the solution to remove sniper from the game and be replaced with Pathfinder like units.

Early game, going for fast sniper is usually "compensated" with a lost of map control. But contrary to Coh1, early map control in Coh2 isn't that critical. This is also true for Penal.
Snipers and Penals would be much more balanced if early game map control had much more signification.
22 Jan 2019, 11:51 AM
#28
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Snipers are like Raketenwerfers, they're both frustrating to use and frustrating to play against.

The reason for this? They're a 1 man squad. If your dive doesn't work, you get nothing, and thanks to accuracy mechanics its very random if it does.

As a result, the countersniper is usually the play, but this is entirely skill-based: if they're better with snipers than you, expect to lose 360 MP for nothing.

We won't see total Snipers to Pathfinders reworks at this point, but there's another solution we might just get past the Relicdar.

Make all snipers 2-man.

Make them like the Soviet ones: low health on the models (or high received accuracy), but there are two.

This means an attack on a sniper has a much better chance of killing one model and inflict its reinforcement cost on the enemy, but unlikely to get a full wipe.

Then you give the 360 MP 2-man sniper squad a reinforcement cost of 150 MP.

If the enemy is consistently pulling off dives, that sniper is going to bleed you out right back.
22 Jan 2019, 12:01 PM
#32
avatar of Joshua85

Posts: 606

Could anyone who just came in here to flame and slag of each others ranks please jump over to the discussion forum on steam which seem to have been made for this very purpose? Otherwise I'll have to ask the moderaters nicely to go in hard on invising anything that is not on topic. :ot:


jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2019, 11:51 AMLago
Snipers are like Raketenwerfers, they're both frustrating to use and frustrating to play against.

The reason for this? They're a 1 man squad. If your dive doesn't work, you get nothing, and thanks to accuracy mechanics its very random if it does.

As a result, the countersniper is usually the play, but this is entirely skill-based: if they're better with snipers than you, expect to lose 360 MP for nothing.

We won't see total Snipers to Pathfinders reworks at this point, but there's another solution we might just get past the Relicdar.

Make all snipers 2-man.

Make them like the Soviet ones: low health on the models (or high received accuracy), but there are two.

This means an attack on a sniper has a much better chance of killing one model and inflict its reinforcement cost on the enemy, but unlikely to get a full wipe.

Then you give the 360 MP 2-man sniper squad a reinforcement cost of 150 MP.

If the enemy is consistently pulling off dives, that sniper is going to bleed you out right back.


I respectfully disagree that this as a good solution to sniper spamming as two sniper units grouped together will still get the insta wipe on the opponents sniper and force you to chase deep with light vehicles. The soviet two-man squad was removed with good reason and increasing the reinforcement cost with another 60 mp is not something I think will get to the bottom of the problem.
22 Jan 2019, 12:10 PM
#33
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

But you'll more reliably get a payoff for that dive, rather than the frustration of the sniper getting lucky and your M20 not securing the kill.

Another, much more straightforward solution is to ram their received accuracy through the roof so just about every shot fired at them hits. No more sticking them behind green cover or in buildings: if they take fire, they get hurt.

That means a light vehicle dive will almost always work, as will infantry flanks.

Setback to this one is it makes them much easier to wipe.
22 Jan 2019, 12:23 PM
#34
avatar of Joshua85

Posts: 606

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2019, 12:10 PMLago
But you'll more reliably get a payoff for that dive, rather than the frustration of the sniper getting lucky and your M20 not securing the kill.

Another, much more straightforward solution is to ram their received accuracy through the roof so just about every shot fired at them hits. No more sticking them behind green cover or in buildings: if they take fire, they get hurt.

That means a light vehicle dive will almost always work, as will infantry flanks.


I hear what you're saying, but it kind of sounds like an overcomplicated way to achieve the same goal if you know what I mean ;)

throwing their recieved accuracy through the roof, would not play in favor of skilled players using them correct, but rather just make them way more vulnerable in ways that are outside a players control and it also seems counterintuitive that they should not benefit from buildings, as that would be the most likely place for a sniper to set up. If anything they should get their range and abilities severely nerfed when not in a building (that might actually be an interesting idea to brainstorm).
22 Jan 2019, 12:30 PM
#35
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Don't like that one either? I always have more. :D

Setup Time: Give them a setup time like the Flak HT. Gotta brace that sniper rifle!

That'd give infantry some solid counterplay: if you're chasing a sniper, it can't shoot back at you without letting you catch up with it. Futhermore, based on HMGs, I'm fairly sure the sniper won't reload unless set up.

Combine this with a +5 boost to sight and range so they can still fight spotted MGs without having to do the shoot-jump-back thing. Y'know, what they're actually for.
22 Jan 2019, 12:35 PM
#36
avatar of Joshua85

Posts: 606

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2019, 12:30 PMLago
Don't like that one either? I always have more. :D

Setup Time: Give them a setup time like the Flak HT. Gotta brace that sniper rifle!

That'd give infantry some solid counterplay: if you're chasing a sniper, it can't shoot back at you without letting you catch up with it. Futhermore, based on HMGs, I'm fairly sure the sniper won't reload unless set up.

Combine this with a +5 boost to sight and range so they can still fight spotted MGs without having to do the shoot-jump-back thing. Y'know, what they're actually for.


Now that's a pretty interesting idea! :clap:
22 Jan 2019, 13:37 PM
#38
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2257 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2019, 11:51 AMLago
Snipers are like Raketenwerfers, they're both frustrating to use and frustrating to play against.

The reason for this? They're a 1 man squad. If your dive doesn't work, you get nothing, and thanks to accuracy mechanics its very random if it does.

As a result, the countersniper is usually the play, but this is entirely skill-based: if they're better with snipers than you, expect to lose 360 MP for nothing.

We won't see total Snipers to Pathfinders reworks at this point, but there's another solution we might just get past the Relicdar.

Make all snipers 2-man.

Make them like the Soviet ones: low health on the models (or high received accuracy), but there are two.

This means an attack on a sniper has a much better chance of killing one model and inflict its reinforcement cost on the enemy, but unlikely to get a full wipe.

Then you give the 360 MP 2-man sniper squad a reinforcement cost of 150 MP.

If the enemy is consistently pulling off dives, that sniper is going to bleed you out right back.


too bad the community wanted so eagerly that all snipers are 1 men instead
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