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russian armor

The LMG alternative

1 Jan 2019, 12:54 PM
#1
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

It crossed my mind today, so i will need some guidance for this. But first i will need some answers.

1. Do JLI get 1 G43?
2. Has anyone used USF's Commanders (Infantry, Tactical support) that provide the M1919 LMG?


Can the M1919 LMG compete with the G43 at far range? Will Riflemen have a chance of winning an engagement versus JLI? What are the stats for those weapons so we can compare them? Maybe the long range play is a temporary solution to JLI hordes.
1 Jan 2019, 13:20 PM
#2
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

JLI have 0.9 accuracy versus cover. Unless I've misunderstood the stats, the usual penalty is 0.5.

Fight them at range, they'll win.
  • They cloak in cover, giving them a hefty First Strike bonus when the fighting starts.
  • They get a 0.9 penalty rather than a 0.5 accuracy penalty in a cover fight, meaning you get very little benefit from cover whereas they get the full benefit.
  • They roll instakills at 75% health, negating the damage reducing benefits of cover.

If you manage to get in close, they'll use their Sprint ability to go back to range. Not only do they have a huge stack of bonuses in coverfights, they've got an escape ability if you ever catch them at an advantageous range. These things can kite Shock Troops at the moment.

The only bit of good news is this CP1 infiltrating budget Obersoldaten squad also has the weakness of an Obersoldaten squad: vehicles slaughter the things, with a solid chance to wipe on retreat.
1 Jan 2019, 13:30 PM
#3
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 13:20 PMLago
JLI have 0.9 accuracy versus cover. Unless I've misunderstood the stats, the usual penalty is 0.5.

Fight them at range, they'll win.
  • They cloak in cover, giving them a hefty First Strike bonus when the fighting starts.
  • They get a 0.9 penalty rather than a 0.5 accuracy penalty in a cover fight, meaning you get very little benefit from cover whereas they get the full benefit.
  • They roll instakills at 75% health, negating the damage reducing benefits of cover.

If you manage to get in close, they'll use their Sprint ability to go back to range. Not only do they have a huge stack of bonuses in coverfights, they've got an escape ability if you ever catch them at an advantageous range. These things can kite Shock Troops at the moment.

The only bit of good news is this CP1 infiltrating budget Obersoldaten squad also has the weakness of an Obersoldaten squad: vehicles slaughter the things, with a solid chance to wipe on retreat.


My guess is that denying cover with grenades or molotovs from Soviets (2v2) also won't work, right? So my only bet is vehicles?
1 Jan 2019, 14:14 PM
#4
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

Check https://coh2db.com/stats/

The only things you have to keep in mind beyond what is listed there are that the g43 (as already stated by others many times) crits at 75% and had its cover table bumped up from .5 to .9 for light, heavy, and garrison cover, and the first strike bonus from camo, which gives them an extra 50% accuracy for 5 seconds.

If you were asking for more practical advice and less raw stats, then yes, lmg rifles can work.
ddd
1 Jan 2019, 14:24 PM
#5
avatar of ddd

Posts: 528 | Subs: 1

Fighting overperforming long range unit with underperforming long range unit is not very smart...You would rather try close range units like rangers, paras or cav rifles and closing with smoke. Jli are not very durable at close range.
1 Jan 2019, 17:20 PM
#6
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 14:24 PMddd
Fighting overperforming long range unit with underperforming long range unit is not very smart...You would rather try close range units like rangers, paras or cav rifles and closing with smoke. Jli are not very durable at close range.


In the process, the advancing unit will take casualties which is something i need to avoid against them since JLI have the advantage. I also thing that Rangers will work, or even Paratroopers with double LMG and covering fire ability. Maybe this will work. I'm not pretty sure about Cavalry Riflemen though
1 Jan 2019, 17:45 PM
#7
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Cav rifles do well against them if you begin the engagement at medium/close range. That means either try to ambush them from behind. sight blockers or use smoke. I find the latter to be fairly effective but that of course needs muni and they’ll usually drop a man off your cav rifles just in the time it takes you to smoke if they use ambush camo (which also means you won’t see him until he opens fire on you).
1 Jan 2019, 18:38 PM
#8
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

I REALLY feel like people are overstating JLIs power. While I havent tried cav rifles, I have used AEs extensively, and they simply destroy JLI. Basically, AEs, cav rifles, and rangers should easily beat jli squads on a 1 for 1 basis. Combat wise, JLI are grens with better RA, a g43 sniper instead of an mg42, and an ambush bonus (which grens can also get with the right doctrine).
1 Jan 2019, 18:52 PM
#9
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

I REALLY feel like people are overstating JLIs power. While I havent tried cav rifles, I have used AEs extensively, and they simply destroy JLI. Basically, AEs, cav rifles, and rangers should easily beat jli squads on a 1 for 1 basis. Combat wise, JLI are grens with better RA, a g43 sniper instead of an mg42, and an ambush bonus (which grens can also get with the right doctrine).


I have Rangers in mind, but the problem is closing the distance to JLI.
1 Jan 2019, 19:17 PM
#10
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I REALLY feel like people are overstating JLIs power. While I havent tried cav rifles, I have used AEs extensively, and they simply destroy JLI. Basically, AEs, cav rifles, and rangers should easily beat jli squads on a 1 for 1 basis. Combat wise, JLI are grens with better RA, a g43 sniper instead of an mg42, and an ambush bonus (which grens can also get with the right doctrine).


They're not equivalent at all.

Against an LMG42 Grenadier squad in green cover, you can take another piece of green cover and coverfight it, with the result being down to numbers and weapon ranges as usual. You've also got the option of rushing in with a CQC unit, in which case the Grenadier has to retreat.

Neither option works against JLI. They've got such extreme bonuses against squads in green cover that your only option to fight them is to close in, and then they've got Sprint to escape that.

Your only options are heavy investment in doctrinal CQC and light vehicles.

It feels a lot like playing against a Sniper. JLI are counterable, but they're not fun in the slightest. I usually want to just hit /l there and then rather than play against them.
1 Jan 2019, 19:21 PM
#11
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:17 PMLago


They're not equivalent at all.

Against an LMG42 Grenadier squad in green cover, you can take another piece of green cover and coverfight it, with the result being down to numbers and weapon ranges as usual. You've also got the option of rushing in with a CQC unit, in which case the Grenadier has to retreat.

Neither option works against JLI. They've got such extreme bonuses against squads in green cover that your only option to fight them is to close in, and then they've got Sprint to escape that.

Your only options are heavy investment in doctrinal CQC and light vehicles. It feels a lot like playing against a Sniper, and as someone who doesn't like playing against snipers, playing against JLI is a horrible experience.


They don't have snares, is that right?
1 Jan 2019, 19:22 PM
#12
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

No snares on JLI. They rely on nearby Volks squads for protection against light vehicles. Which they can Sprint to if they've got the munitions.
1 Jan 2019, 19:27 PM
#13
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:22 PMLago
No snares on JLI. They rely on nearby Volks squads for protection against light vehicles. Which they can Sprint to if they've got the munitions.


In this case all vehicles are their counter, and in order to get a quick wipe you need M8 Greyhound and its canister shot.
1 Jan 2019, 19:32 PM
#14
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

In this case all vehicles are their counter, and in order to get a quick wipe you need M8 Greyhound and its canister shot.


What are you going to do before CP5? What are you going to do about the vehicular counters there are before CP5?

For USF specifically to fight JLI in their current state, you need to pick Armor or Mechanized and spam out a lot of CQC troops. Airborne and Heavy Cav don't work as well as you've only got one CQC squad which they'll kite with Sprint until it has to retreat. You can forget about other commanders entirely.

JLI as is is like Advanced Emplacements: there's a specific counterstrategy (CQC spam) that hard counters it, but do anything else and you'll have a bad time.
1 Jan 2019, 19:49 PM
#15
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:32 PMLago


What are you going to do before CP5? What are you going to do about the vehicular counters there are before CP5?

For USF specifically to fight JLI in their current state, you need to pick Armor or Mechanized and spam out a lot of CQC troops. Airborne and Heavy Cav don't work as well as you've only got one CQC squad which they'll kite with Sprint until it has to retreat. You can forget about other commanders entirely.

JLI as is is like Advanced Emplacements: there's a specific counterstrategy (CQC spam) that hard counters it, but do anything else and you'll have a bad time.


Seems like Rifle Company will be viable with the sprint that gives to Riflemen.

So, if Cavalry and Airborne don't work against them, which Commanders are good against them?
1 Jan 2019, 19:52 PM
#16
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Fire Up makes the squad slow down after the sprint. It's a terrible ability nobody uses.

The commanders that work well against JLI are Armor and Mechanized: the two which give you relatively cheap close combat troops early on.
1 Jan 2019, 20:05 PM
#17
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:52 PMLago
Fire Up makes the squad slow down after the sprint. It's a terrible ability nobody uses.

The commanders that work well against JLI are Armor and Mechanized: the two which give you relatively cheap close combat troops early on.


So we will just play chase around the map with them.
1 Jan 2019, 20:55 PM
#18
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:17 PMLago


They're not equivalent at all.

Against an LMG42 Grenadier squad in green cover, you can take another piece of green cover and coverfight it, with the result being down to numbers and weapon ranges as usual. You've also got the option of rushing in with a CQC unit, in which case the Grenadier has to retreat.

Neither option works against JLI. They've got such extreme bonuses against squads in green cover that your only option to fight them is to close in, and then they've got Sprint to escape that.

Your only options are heavy investment in doctrinal CQC and light vehicles.

It feels a lot like playing against a Sniper. JLI are counterable, but they're not fun in the slightest. I usually want to just hit /l there and then rather than play against them.

I mean, I already said they get a g43 sniper instead of an mg42.

And closing actually is a viable tactic against JLI as it is against grenadiers. Having your jli sprint away to kite sounds cool and super effective until you realize:

-it costs munitions (obviously a small amount, but still)
-it means giving up the cover position you probably wanted to be holding in the first place
-you get shot in the back the entire time while youre sprinting away, with the squad still pursuing (if favorable), meaning when youre done sprinting, you can still be left in close range anyway

Basically, using sprint in small arms combat is usually suboptimal.

Also, what extreme bonuses against cover? I believe youre referring to a reduced penalty on a single weapon in the squad which relies heavily on the rest of the weapons in the squad chipping away with damage first. The rest of those weapons I referred to are gren rifles.
1 Jan 2019, 21:13 PM
#19
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 310


I mean, I already said they get a g43 sniper instead of an mg42.

And closing actually is a viable tactic against JLI as it is against grenadiers. Having your jli sprint away to kite sounds cool and super effective until you realize:

-it costs munitions (obviously a small amount, but still)
-it means giving up the cover position you probably wanted to be holding in the first place
-you get shot in the back the entire time while youre sprinting away, with the squad still pursuing (if favorable), meaning when youre done sprinting, you can still be left in close range anyway

Basically, using sprint in small arms combat is usually suboptimal.

Also, what extreme bonuses against cover? I believe youre referring to a reduced penalty on a single weapon in the squad which relies heavily on the rest of the weapons in the squad chipping away with damage first. The rest of those weapons I referred to are gren rifles.


So our bet is CQC or simply fire and maneuver?
1 Jan 2019, 21:14 PM
#20
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571



So our bet is CQC or simply fire and maneuver?


CQC, and you need to watch your units like a hawk because otherwise you get wiped before retreat.
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