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russian armor

USF vs OKW

2 Dec 2018, 09:45 AM
#1
avatar of Sartori86

Posts: 7

Hello,

I'm fairly new player and I'm trying to improve my 1v1. While I feel I'm doing relatively well against Wermacht, I struggle against OKW, especially in early game.

While using Riflemen I am able to handle Grens and Pioneers quite well, as I can out-dps the first and out-range the latter. I think STG44 beats my guys in both ways.

What would be the best way to counter units armed with STG44 early on? Rush to Lieutenant and then getting MG on the field ASAP?

Another unit I struggle against is the 20mm mobile FLAK. So far I tried to counter it like 222, with bazookas, tough while not necessarily tougher, the FLAK seems to be dealing a lot more damage. Thus I'm forced to retreat my guys before they can deal the final blow.

I know that Stuart is a thing, however my micro of light vehicles is appalling and I struggle to keep it alive long enough to be able to return the investment. I know this is not an issue with game itself and I should (and will) simply practice more, however I'd like to learn an alternative, if there is a viable one.

Thanks in advance for advise!
2 Dec 2018, 14:31 PM
#2
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 517

USF, as of now, is a bit tricky early game. Sturms are very strong and Volks can deal with infantry from a distance. Early game there is a strong tendency for movement mini-games, and u should be very cautious.

If they rush for your cutoff, know that they'll leave another flank open. Most times, in my experience, OKW players will forgo the kubel and build Volks x3-5. Really aggressive players will rush all infantry to cutoff, specially on maps with plenty room for cover - I'm looking at you, Arnhem.

You should use their aggressiveness to your advantage. Kite the infantry from long distance with one squad, and leave another(s) to behind a blocker. Don't position the squad in any way that stimulates the OKW player to block the retreat pathway - it will most probably be wiped, and it hurts so much losing infantry at this stage.

If you are successful with the above, you'll manage to kill a lot of models. Don't be greedy - you don't want to jeopardize squads for a wipe, and the manpower game is very important. Also, you want to vet your riflemen.

Cap the other side of the map, and as soon as you have 3 or 4 riflemen, buy a mortar. The mortar turns fights that would be otherwise won by him, negating cover and making their squads move. Even if it doesn't do much damage, everytime the volks squad is firing on the move, it receives a penalty to accuracy and you will deal more damage.

Avoid trying to trade fire with blobbing squads, unless you want to buy time. You want to trade manpower and bleed him - don't get bled instead.

As soon as you get vet2, your riflemen will survive a lot better on fights, and you'll have a better capacity for holding down ground.

Finally, upgrading squads with BAR should be an early priority, as it'll give an edge over Volks, even ones with SMG's. I like to go LT first and give a second BAR to him, and use him for devastating flanks.

Above average players will make use of a lot of smoke - even in relatively early game, smoke from mortar can be used to block vision from squads behind green cover, and the player will have to face to option to swallow the damage from trying to dive against the squad, or leaving the fight and territory for the US player. There's a reason USF has so many options for smoke and you should try to always use them. Just remember: if you want to grab a point, don't throw smoke over it - throw where his MG or squads are, and make HIM move to relocate.
2 Dec 2018, 16:52 PM
#3
avatar of Sartori86

Posts: 7

<snipped for convenience>


Thank you for that Jedi. Really appreciate your feedback.

I guess I had the right tools, just need to practice execution.

From what you wrote, I understand that M1 is still superior to STG44 in long range? If so, then I indeed need to put emphasis on kiting at early stage. I guess I'll sacrifice expansion early in the game to keep at least two units together at all time, instead of spreading them to capture as many point as possible.

The mortar part makes sense I guess, coming to think about it. I use it mostly to create smoke screen during assaults, but I'll try to get it sooner to force opponent's movement, as you advised. Good point.



3 Dec 2018, 03:05 AM
#4
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 517


(...) From what you wrote, I understand that M1 is still superior to STG44 in long range?


Actually, it's the other way around - volks' Kar is better at long distances. What I meant is using this to kite his squads closer and closer to somewhere where True Sight hides another one or two squads, and then u jump on a surprise attack. As long as you are losing some health, he will chase your squad, trying to kill some models.


(...)I guess I'll sacrifice expansion early in the game to keep at least two units together at all time, instead of spreading them to capture as many point as possible.


Just avoid long distance fights, because you will lose them. If conditions are not good, give ground and choose your fight. Also, don't be too anxious about the cutoff. U can lose it, as long as you are bleeding him.
3 Dec 2018, 03:10 AM
#5
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 217

USF is at a pretty serious disadvantage to both Axis factions and probably the main reason why is due to the tech tree and the poor preformance of Riflemen which the faction is forced to rely on. USF has no "power units" (crutch units really) at the start of the game where as Wehrmacht has access to the HMG42 and OKW Strumpioneers. The challenge with OKW is at the start of the game, every single one of their starting units is superior to your own. Volksgrens outpreform Riflemen and REs and so do Strums most of the time. The mortar is only marginally effective against garrisoned structures and is of little use. The ambulance is nothing more than a manpower and fuel sink until much later. Going back to the poor preformance of Riflemen, they are ineffective at range against units where as volks excel at long range behind sandbags, they are ineffective at close range against Strums which excel at close range combat so you have only a small window where your Riflemen in theory might be effective at "medium" range. You see the problem now?
3 Dec 2018, 12:21 PM
#6
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1868

Tactically, focus down the Sturmpioneer first: it's a glass cannon that's strong at close range.

With the Sturmpioneer Squad driven off, you can engage the Volks at close range where they lose.

Strategically, prioritise munitions, get BARs. If I remember Jae For Jett's numbers correctly, a 1x BAR Rifleman squad outguns an STG Volksgrenadier.
3 Dec 2018, 13:51 PM
#7
avatar of Sartori86

Posts: 7

@Pedro - I think there is a slight misunderstanding. My main concern are Sturms not Volks. I consider Sturmpioneers to be assault grens on steroids, as STG44's range is greater than MP40's. Still I did go for early mortar with great effect, so thanks for that :).

@CODGUY - I really wouldn't like this topic to turn into a balance related discussion, even if there are clearly balance issues. Otherwise USF wouldn't be getting a buff. I am very aware of the problem, hence why I'm trying to find out how more experienced players have managed to get around that. But yes, I'd love if USF had MG as a T0 rather than a mortar. That's just my wishful thinking.

@Lago - Yes, rushing to get BARs as soon as possible is what I've been trying to do so far. I didn't know a single BAR can tip the balance to my favor in 1 on 1 engagements. That's a nice little fact there.

3 Dec 2018, 23:14 PM
#8
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 217



@CODGUY - I really wouldn't like this topic to turn into a balance related discussion, even if there are clearly balance issues. Otherwise USF wouldn't be getting a buff. I am very aware of the problem, hence why I'm trying to find out how more experienced players have managed to get around that. But yes, I'd love if USF had MG as a T0 rather than a mortar. That's just my wishful thinking.




Well nobody should be getting MGs T0, that's one of the fundumental problems with the game and it makes it even worse when you nerf everyones MGs except for one faction's.
4 Dec 2018, 06:27 AM
#9
avatar of AtomicRockets
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 688

One of my favorite e-sports coaches said this:

"We don't care if it is balanced or not. We have been given the same set of tools as everyone else, and it's our job to find out how to use them to win."

This is the mentality that people in the State Office are supposed to have. We do not care about balance, for that is a topic for a different sub-forum. We care about strategy and tactics; we care about execution and gamesense.

Come here to discuss strategy and tactics, execution and gamesense. Otherwise, make your opinions heard elsewhere.

To the OP:

Pedro and Lago's advice has been quite good.
I would like to add a little about the Sdkfz. 251/17 2cm Flak Halftrack. While Bazookas are effective against other light vehicles like the Sdkfz. 222, Sdkfz. 251, Panzer II Luchs, Sdkfz. 234/2 Puma, they are not a very good counter to the Flak HT as it deals suppression.
In this case, an Anti-Tank Gun (the M1 57mm ATG) would be the better answer. Use your ATG to support your infantry, as the Flak HT is forced away (i.e. it will die if the player doesn't pop smoke and leave the area).
4 Dec 2018, 07:56 AM
#10
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 192

As of late I really like Infantry Company against OKW mainly because M1919's are superior to STG's the Volks have and you don't have to pay the side-tech cost of getting Bar's immediately. You also have sandbags,mines, and artillery to break trucks and Pak 43's and the LEFH if he goes to Fortifications Doctrine which is good against USF. I usually still get Racks later on for Zooks but it's nice to save some resources early game. My build order consists of the following: Rifle,Rifle,Rifle,Rifle,Captain,Ambo,57mm,Stuart(if opponent goes for a Luchs),Major,Sherman,Jackson. You generally want 4 Rifles to match his 4 Volks or to apply pressure if he only goes for 3 Volks. Get the Captain and focus on taking 1 on 1 engagements and focusing the Sturmpio down if it tries to close the gap. Get an AT Gun to help with units like the Flak HT and only go for a Stuart if your opponent goes for the Panzer II since the Stuart is a good counter and forces your opponent to either have to go for a Puma which delays his medium tanks or Rak's which are kind of inconsistent. After that, the key should be to rush medium armor as fast as possible and then build a Jackson to try and counter his armor. You can also go Heavy Cavalry and go Pershing but you will need to go Weapon Racks before you get your Major tech in that case.
4 Dec 2018, 12:09 PM
#11
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 517

As of late I really like Infantry Company against OKW mainly because M1919's are superior to STG's the Volks have and you don't have to pay the side-tech cost of getting Bar's immediately. You also have sandbags,mines, and artillery to break trucks and Pak 43's and the LEFH if he goes to Fortifications Doctrine which is good against USF. I usually still get Racks later on for Zooks but it's nice to save some resources early game. My build order consists of the following: Rifle,Rifle,Rifle,Rifle,Captain,Ambo,57mm,Stuart(if opponent goes for a Luchs),Major,Sherman,Jackson. You generally want 4 Rifles to match his 4 Volks or to apply pressure if he only goes for 3 Volks. Get the Captain and focus on taking 1 on 1 engagements and focusing the Sturmpio down if it tries to close the gap. Get an AT Gun to help with units like the Flak HT and only go for a Stuart if your opponent goes for the Panzer II since the Stuart is a good counter and forces your opponent to either have to go for a Puma which delays his medium tanks or Rak's which are kind of inconsistent. After that, the key should be to rush medium armor as fast as possible and then build a Jackson to try and counter his armor. You can also go Heavy Cavalry and go Pershing but you will need to go Weapon Racks before you get your Major tech in that case.


Indeed, I’m having the same experience. M1919 turns around the engagements, giving USF the upper hand on long distance fights. Also, with so much damage done, squads vet really fast. I still tech racks though, for zooks. Also, the captain squad benefits from having double BAR’s, specially at vet3 with Sprint, for fast flanks.

With Infantry you gotta be aggressive with arty, and always scout for his positions, never stop firing. At all opportunities, throw everything at his trucks, specially the Flak - at most, he’ll rush for P4, and with some luck, it’ll be all he will get from it.

Prioritize munis and build only muni cashes. Use frequently the Major’s recon run for deep lines, prioritize his arti, MG’s and the eventual rak. Having to reposition, keep sending waves of soldiers, and keep your major at front for fast retreats and recomposing your men. This usuallly attracts Stukas, so beware of that.
4 Dec 2018, 18:44 PM
#12
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 913 | Subs: 1

As others have said USFs early game is tricky, especially against OKW who can exploit your early game weakness. Basically the goal is to survive the early game so you can start turning the game into your favor with better scaling infantry and a stronger late game.

Early game I'd recommend keeping squads close together to fight the Strumpio. If the strumpio gets mid to close without taking decent damage than you'll almost always lose that fight unless you have multiple squads.

In most situations I'd recommend LT tier against OKW unless you go Airborne. The 50cal/AAHT are almost vital to surviving the early to mid to suppress OKW's large squad presence. The AAHT can melt the Flak HT and has good suppression and damage that is needed to help your infantry combat his. If you aren't use to microing this unit though it can be tricky and might need some practice. I highly recommend practicing it though as this vehicle is pretty important in the USF roster at the moment. 50 cals are also still great MGs if you got space for them.

Your rifles scale much better into the mid to late than Volks. They have excellent vet and double bars means they can even give elites a run for their money. As others have said I recommend getting Bars or else STG volks will do work on your rifles.

Late game you have excellent AI options in the Scott and the Sherman while also having the best all around TD in the game. Some thing worth trying is Scotts into Jackson. Scotts are wiping machines against infantry.
7 Dec 2018, 21:05 PM
#13
avatar of Sartori86

Posts: 7

Thank you all very much, I really appreciate all the feedback.

What I found bit surprising, but decided to give it a try, was to go for AA Half Truck against the German FLAK Hanomag. It was one of the most satisfactory things I saw in this game so far, when it practically melted that damn thing. I was also having some success using it against OKW infantry, so I guess I'm a new AA truck fanboy :D.

Which leads me actually to another question: Is there any room for M20 in this match-up? I mean, the MG on M20 is nice and I swap the crew with RE for the free bazooka, but all in all, AA HT seems to be doing everything better, even if I need to wait bit longer to gather the fuel required.
7 Dec 2018, 21:40 PM
#14
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

I'd only use the M20 vs Snipers, the Mine is good but wait until the USF tech rework, it's gonna be much better then.
8 Dec 2018, 05:36 AM
#15
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 217

One of my favorite e-sports coaches said this:

"We don't care if it is balanced or not. We have been given the same set of tools as everyone else, and it's our job to find out how to use them to win."

This is the mentality that people in the State Office are supposed to have. We do not care about balance, for that is a topic for a different sub-forum. We care about strategy and tactics; we care about execution and gamesense.

Come here to discuss strategy and tactics, execution and gamesense. Otherwise, make your opinions heard elsewhere.

To the OP:

Pedro and Lago's advice has been quite good.
I would like to add a little about the Sdkfz. 251/17 2cm Flak Halftrack. While Bazookas are effective against other light vehicles like the Sdkfz. 222, Sdkfz. 251, Panzer II Luchs, Sdkfz. 234/2 Puma, they are not a very good counter to the Flak HT as it deals suppression.
In this case, an Anti-Tank Gun (the M1 57mm ATG) would be the better answer. Use your ATG to support your infantry, as the Flak HT is forced away (i.e. it will die if the player doesn't pop smoke and leave the area).


I bet the poor bastard competing in esports forced to use the inferior faction cares. And no, if you're USF you have not been given the same set of tools as OST.
8 Dec 2018, 06:24 AM
#16
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Dec 2018, 05:36 AMCODGUY


I bet the poor bastard competing in esports forced to use the inferior faction cares.

Then you would be wrong.
ddd
8 Dec 2018, 15:56 PM
#17
avatar of ddd

Posts: 318

Funny how the forum "experts" try to convince everyone that usf is perfectly viable faction, but at the same time people competing for real money avoid them like a plague. Really makes you think.
8 Dec 2018, 20:02 PM
#18
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2313

Just a couple super basic tips I guess:

Golden rule of early game is always 2v1 his sturms (the guys with stg44s).

Flanking is key too, if you can get used to it as a habit and regularly pull it off. You might already know this, but I always try to attack from multiple angles instead of having my forces come in from one direction.

I actually like stuarts a lot, and if you can get decent at microing them it'll help your vehicle play in general, since it's basically a mini sherman. The abilities are great too if you get used to using them. However, it will delay your sherman pretty heavily, so make sure you are prepared to counter his first medium tank without one of your own.
24 Dec 2018, 06:49 AM
#19
avatar of SilentSelene

Posts: 5

As a player playing USF, the first thing you need to do is ignoring all irrelavent and negative comment towards this faction.

There is a standard production build order for USF:

unit-unit-unit-lt/cpt-unit-unit-weapon rack

Then it can counter light armor rush of ostneer/OKW

The main objective of US in early game is preventing so-called "manpower blackhole", which means bleed too much manpower and affect time high-tier unit entering battlefield.

If you are inf.style player, early game should perform squad splitting in order to achieve multiple flanking.

You can use this article as reference, although it is a bit old, the tactic inside still applicable in multiplayer 1v1, 2v2

https://www.coh2.org/guides/44135/devm-s-usf-without-tears

Other then that if you want to improve your skill of USF, you should try micro some light armor, the best practice unit should be M20.

In USF all units are multi-purpose, M20 purpose is anti-inf, mine laying, scouting and AT.

Try to use this thing to attack alone inf squad in close range and practise vehicle pop in-out when see light armor.

Dont be afraid to get faust, because german will lose 35 munitions to get a engine damaged vehicle, while youR stablized M20 can shoot inf in its greatest effeciency.

If vechicle nearly destory, pop out the crew. Since crew can inherit exp to all vehicle include tanks, dont be afraid to let german get in vechicle.

This may let you dropped ranking fast, but if you can master m20 well you can dominate a fight vs OKW.


Remember an important thing, the best weapon in USF is combination, light vehicle and flexibility.

There are at least 3 styles in US:

Inf.based style(inf comp., rf comp)
Inf-vechicle combination style(recon-sup, mech.comp)
Mech-based style(mech.comp)

Just choose the best style you want to play is ok, meta is just a fixed guideline, it does not represent the whole picture of battling germen.

Keep it up.
4 Apr 2019, 05:55 AM
#20
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 217

USF is at a disadvantage vs OKW especially because they have units that cost more but really aren't any better than their OKW equivalents. Riflemen are supposed to be better than Volksgrenadiers (LOL right...) so you've got a 280 MP unit with a 28 MP reinforcement cost against an equally good unit unit for 250 MP and 25 MP reinforcement cost and then you throw in their elite infantry starting unit that forces you to retreat and its gg everytime unless the RNG gods smile on you that day. There is really no reason at all for Riflemen to cost more than Volksgrens.
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