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russian armor

Soviet Sniper Fixed ?

28 Aug 2013, 07:46 AM
#21
avatar of Papinak

Posts: 53

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Aug 2013, 22:21 PMBlovski
In addition to which, the 40 hp is just way too low. I've seen a few get ZiS sniped with just a normal shot, and any sort of indirect fire can basically just instakill them.


Peter from Relic said that indirect fire is meant to be the counter to snipers. The problem is, as you said, it works only against the german sniper. Also I remember from vCOH how many snipers died to AT guns in general until they finally fix this in some patch. It is however hard to say if snipers die to AT guns in COH2 cuz no one build german sniper and not so many soviets waist time with ZIS and PAK on the other hand gets very quickly decrewed.
28 Aug 2013, 08:07 AM
#22
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 07:46 AMPapinak


Peter from Relic said that indirect fire is meant to be the counter to snipers.


He did? Oh lol...

Too bad then that Osts ONLY indirect fire option, is the humble Mortar.
GL hitting a Sniper with that before it relocates.
28 Aug 2013, 11:46 AM
#23
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 08:07 AMNullist


He did? Oh lol...

Too bad then that Osts ONLY indirect fire option, is the humble Mortar.
GL hitting a Sniper with that before it relocates.


I've actually had decent luck using the 82 to kill soviet snipers with decent micro. Hotkey your mortar and just shift his fire via attack ground between barrages when needed, in general not just vs snipers.

Early on it doesnt work well but once the soviet player gets 2 or more snipers, the soviet will tend to clump them up to keep the micro easy on himself so if you can mortar them during a battle where his attention is on other units you can get some nice hits.

But then again you need luck.

Strafe is always a fun sniper counter if you get that doctrine, but tbh I havent used it much lately.

Whatever "counter" kills a sniper, I always breathe a sigh of relief because the soviet sniper really is a game changer vs german infantry and crew teams.

28 Aug 2013, 14:16 PM
#24
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Aug 2013, 06:39 AMNullist
The 2x RoF unfortunately also means the Ost Sniper is necessarily revealed twice as often in order for it to perform its duties at equivalency to Sov Sniper, in relation to the larger Sov squad sizes.

This creates a internal handicap that sort of negates this "perk", to an extent.

Cover is so plentiful in this game that I find the longer camo out of cover to be a pretty superficial advantage. Makes micro moderately easier, but itsma "gimmicky" kind of thing that can just as easily be accomplished with movement through normal cover.

Id recommend:
-80 hp
-Change RoF to a quick double tap, with long reload after the two shots.
-Make Camo same as Sov.
-Increase its sight range above Sov Snipers


+1 to the double tap idea, Love it! Would fix 1v1 sniper vs sniper.

Problem will come in 2v2 if one guy gets 2 or 3 snipers and they all double tap. I play 1v1 almost exclusively, but i know for certain 2v2 players will complain if relic implements a double tap system.

I say just fuck the whole "asymmetrical balance bullshit" for once and make soviet sniper a clone of the german one(maybe with slight rate of fire reduction to compensate squad sizes). The abilities at vet one gives more than enough "asymmetry" imho.

Asymmetrical balance is great and all, but currently it is more asymmetry than balance in a lot of scenarios.
28 Aug 2013, 14:45 PM
#25
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

Those suggested changes to the German sniper are beyond ridiculous. 2 shot double tap and longer sight range than Sov Snipers? Yeah that sounds balanced lol...or, to quote Nullist, "Pffft".
28 Aug 2013, 15:00 PM
#26
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

Read the rest of my post? I'm saying make soviet sniper one man.
28 Aug 2013, 15:35 PM
#27
avatar of SmokazCOH

Posts: 177

Or you could be a bit inventive. If the 2 man sniper thing is what makes it so horribly OP, why not just have the same support weapon mechanic work? If the "sniper" part of the 2 man team gets killed, the binocular guy just runs off the map. Then you still have some flavour and the odd chance of the bino guy being killed leaving the 2 man sensible...
28 Aug 2013, 15:50 PM
#28
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Those suggested changes to the German sniper are beyond ridiculous.


So whats your suggestion?
28 Aug 2013, 16:44 PM
#29
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 15:50 PMNullist


So whats your suggestion?

My suggestion for what? I don't see much of a problem. People always try to downplay the advantages the German sniper has and act like it is supposed to be a game of countersniping a la vCoH. It isn't. Germans have a great counter in the 222 scout car and the mortar with its quick rate of fire. It's unwise to get in sniper wars vs. the Russians and the Germans don't even need to. That said, with good micro and attention and proper use of hold fire and cover, you can use the German sniper effectively - I just wouldn't open with it until you see what the Soviet is doing and you have a force that can support the sniper first. Fortune, in the top 10 for Germans, uses them quite a bit but he doesn't seem to post replays much unfortunately.
28 Aug 2013, 16:56 PM
#30
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

Im just sad that they took away the nice sniper vs sniper battles we saw in coh1. In the current state counter-sniping is almost non existant, or well the german sniper hardly ever countersnipes the russian team. Few players even attempt it. I know the vet1 stun ability can work, but how will a german sniper reach vet 1 with a sov team roaming around. I think you need like 10-15 kills for vet 1 or something.
28 Aug 2013, 17:32 PM
#31
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 16:56 PMMauser
Im just sad that they took away the nice sniper vs sniper battles we saw in coh1. In the current state counter-sniping is almost non existant, or well the german sniper hardly ever countersnipes the russian team. Few players even attempt it. I know the vet1 stun ability can work, but how will a german sniper reach vet 1 with a sov team roaming around. I think you need like 10-15 kills for vet 1 or something.

I find that the German sniper works best when snuck in once you already have a force on the field: scout car, MG42, mortar, grens, etc. It isn't one of those bread and butter units to get every game and is more niche than the Soviet ones but it can still play a role - especially if the Soviet goes T2 not T1. Vet 1 depends on what you're shooting - might be 10+ kills if it's just conscripts but if you're sniping guard or shocks it comes much faster.
28 Aug 2013, 17:39 PM
#32
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Vet 1 depends on what you're shooting - might be 10+ kills if it's just conscripts but if you're sniping guard or shocks it comes much faster.


What does Vet have to do with that.

Its a factor of damage done (or received), not the cost of the killed unit.
28 Aug 2013, 18:09 PM
#33
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 17:39 PMNullist


What does Vet have to do with that.

Its a factor of damage done (or received), not the cost of the killed unit.

Hmm - yes, you're right on the basics of vet (75% based on damage done and 25% on damage received). I wasn't thinking clearly on that point but now that you mention it - if a sniper kills a conscript, isn't the damage done (and so the xp) going to be less than if they kill a shock trooper due to the armour difference? In other words, the sniper's full damage is never being utilized vs. a lowly conscript but in order to kill a shock trooper through its armour, more of the full damage potential gets used and so more xp? Or am I on the wrong track?
Edit: actually, thinking about it more, armour reduces damage done so shouldn't make any difference in terms of xp for vet.
28 Aug 2013, 18:57 PM
#34
avatar of Con!

Posts: 299

Sniper rifle doesn't do any damage just kills if it hits.
28 Aug 2013, 20:51 PM
#35
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

its worth mentioning that the soviet sniper is overperforming currently. the german sniper is supposed to shoot much faster than the soviet. this rate of fire is dependent on distance. i think relic made a mistake though. right now, german sniper shoots 1.4 times faster at near range (where snipers never fight from) but only 1.1 times faster at long range. so the soviet sniper is practically the same as the german version, with twice the durability. if your sniper is used properly, retaining camo shouldnt be an issue.
28 Aug 2013, 21:13 PM
#36
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 07:46 AMPapinak


Peter from Relic said that indirect fire is meant to be the counter to snipers. The problem is, as you said, it works only against the german sniper. Also I remember from vCOH how many snipers died to AT guns in general until they finally fix this in some patch. It is however hard to say if snipers die to AT guns in COH2 cuz no one build german sniper and not so many soviets waist time with ZIS and PAK on the other hand gets very quickly decrewed.


Well, he said that in the context of two Russian sniper teams supported by an SU-85 in the late game, which is fair.

My experience is that the German sniper can die to an awful lot of things the Russian sniper will easily get away with, and especially to things that shouldn't really result in a sniper death (like, a single conscript or engineer squad that he retreats from reasonably quickly, or a tank near-miss on retreat, or a single low-calibre mortar shell that isn't directly on target), as well as being radically less dangerous. I think 80HP would be a huge help with his survivability. Currently when I see a German sniper I suddenly feel very confident, while if I see a Soviet one I start having to think about counters.
28 Aug 2013, 22:16 PM
#37
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2013, 21:13 PMBlovski


Well, he said that in the context of two Russian sniper teams supported by an SU-85 in the late game, which is fair.

My experience is that the German sniper can die to an awful lot of things the Russian sniper will easily get away with, and especially to things that shouldn't really result in a sniper death (like, a single conscript or engineer squad that he retreats from reasonably quickly, or a tank near-miss on retreat, or a single low-calibre mortar shell that isn't directly on target), as well as being radically less dangerous. I think 80HP would be a huge help with his survivability. Currently when I see a German sniper I suddenly feel very confident, while if I see a Soviet one I start having to think about counters.

Doesn't 2 armour already basically = 80 HP?
28 Aug 2013, 22:24 PM
#38
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604


Doesn't 2 armour already basically = 80 HP?

In theory kind of... 2 armor means he has a 50% chance per small arms hit against him to simply ignore that hit and not take any damage from it.
However, the lower a unit's base hitpoints get, the easier RNG can ruin your day (e.g. 3-4 hits without any successful armor rolls = dead sniper).
28 Aug 2013, 23:38 PM
#39
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480


Doesn't 2 armour already basically = 80 HP?


Absolutely zero effect on anything with flames, or explosive (Or sniper fire, I believe). Which includes mortars, grenades and tank fire. Also, as pointed out, the lower HP and single model means the RNG can just wreck your day.
29 Aug 2013, 00:36 AM
#40
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

Both sniper rifles do 80 damage and I assume ignore armour so that's why they outright kill any target as long as the shot connects. In the grand scheme of snipers vs mortar shells, tank shells, flamers, and grenades, I don't think an extra 40 HP is going to matter much 99% of the time, but again, RNG. The extra armour on the Ostheer helps with moving away or retreating from small arms fire at least.
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