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russian armor

Up-to-date unit guides for CoH1?

26 Sep 2017, 12:50 PM
#21
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 344

BAR Riflemen have (functionally) 2x the DPS of a non-upgraded squad. What makes them seem worse is the fact that (for whatever reason) BARs will tend to damage every entity in the squad rather than dropping models outright (which ofc will eventually happen while squads are on low HP). With pure rifles, you'll get the odd volley of rifle shots that instantly nuke a model.

By my reckoning this makes BARs+flamers insanely powerful as the BARs will quickly lower enemy infantry into flamethrowers' crit threshold, allowing your flamers to fire once and nuke half a squad.

BARs are also meh against healing for the aforementioned reason (lack of crits at green/yellow HP).

With everything said and done, the rival mod to the one I code for used to have loads of charts on vCoH weapon DPS; they ran the numbers and it turns out that the M1 rifle in vCoH is so completely shit that, even with BARs in the mix, a Vet0 MP40 squad will out DPS a BAR squad at all ranges (though only by tiny fractions).

DPS at LMS ranges (35-18 m/17-9 m/8-0 m)

Volk K98:
1.229148376
2.330508475
3.851091142

Gren K98:
2.370500439
4.131355932
6.546854942

leader MP44 rifle:
1.22278481
2.864150943
7.811320755

normal m1:
0.68627451
1.605839416
3.821656051

Bar:
1.419310345
4.8234375
11.17668356

I've been elbow-deep in vCoH and close-to-vCoH stats since 2011; let me know if you need anything specific pulled via Corsix.
28 Sep 2017, 13:07 PM
#22
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2017, 12:50 PMVolsky
BAR Riflemen have (functionally) 2x the DPS of a non-upgraded squad. What makes them seem worse is the fact that (for whatever reason) BARs will tend to damage every entity in the squad rather than dropping models outright (which ofc will eventually happen while squads are on low HP). With pure rifles, you'll get the odd volley of rifle shots that instantly nuke a model.

By my reckoning this makes BARs+flamers insanely powerful as the BARs will quickly lower enemy infantry into flamethrowers' crit threshold, allowing your flamers to fire once and nuke half a squad.

BARs are also meh against healing for the aforementioned reason (lack of crits at green/yellow HP).

With everything said and done, the rival mod to the one I code for used to have loads of charts on vCoH weapon DPS; they ran the numbers and it turns out that the M1 rifle in vCoH is so completely shit that, even with BARs in the mix, a Vet0 MP40 squad will out DPS a BAR squad at all ranges (though only by tiny fractions).

DPS at LMS ranges (35-18 m/17-9 m/8-0 m)

Volk K98:
1.229148376
2.330508475
3.851091142

Gren K98:
2.370500439
4.131355932
6.546854942

leader MP44 rifle:
1.22278481
2.864150943
7.811320755

normal m1:
0.68627451
1.605839416
3.821656051

Bar:
1.419310345
4.8234375
11.17668356

I've been elbow-deep in vCoH and close-to-vCoH stats since 2011; let me know if you need anything specific pulled via Corsix.


I doubt those values are correct, because a) Volks and Riflemen use different kinds of weapons - Volks use Kar98 and Stg44 (with special values for single shot) and Rifles use M1 Garands and Carbine for the leader and b) the veterancy for Rifles is a huge deal for Rifle combat in CoH. Vet 2 Rifles supress unvetted Volks after a short time.

Also the dps chart of certain weapons isn't useful because it's not taking into consideration that Riflemen have more squad members/less health per man.

There have been calculations that 6 Riflemen deal exactly the same damage as Volks on medium range before upgrades come into play (this is with a combat formula that takes ALL parameters into condideration - acc., rate of fire, damage, amount of weapons, squad health and reloading times).

However, what seems to be correct is that the buffed MP40 deals ridiculous amounts of damage and can take on BAR rifles for sure. This was proven numerous times and is a reason why Volksspam is pretty broken in vcoh.

But apart from that I doubt these values are accurate.

example: it's impossible that Grenadier rifles deal only slightly more damage than Volks, Grens use Rifles that deal 15 damage per shot with 0.4/0.55/0.75 accuracy. Stormtroopers even use 15 dmg over 0.45/0.6/0.85 acc. (or something like that).

So their DPS per grenadier HAS to be higher than the numbers shown, because the cooldown/reload modifiers are the same as Volks. Volks can deal up tp 50 dmg per salvo with 35% acc (50x.35 = 17.5/avg or 3.5 per man). Grens deal 60dmg per salvo with 40% acc (60x.4 = 24/avg or 6 per man), so roughly twice as much damage. Storms deal even more: 60x0.45 =27 dmg/ 6.75 per man)

Ofc you have to consider reload/cooldown time between shots, but since Kar98 are the same in cooldown (1.25/1/0.75 l/m/s and 0.75s + ~2.5s reload time every 5 shots) the DPS isn't affected at all. Also vet does not affect weapon performance, only rec. damage/accuracy.
28 Sep 2017, 14:05 PM
#23
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

This thread makes me want to know what the exact effects of all the armor types are. I cam only remember a few key nuances, like the armor grens get at vet 2 makes snipers not miss.

Infantry armor type is huge in coh.
28 Sep 2017, 23:22 PM
#24
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

This thread makes me want to know what the exact effects of all the armor types are. I cam only remember a few key nuances, like the armor grens get at vet 2 makes snipers not miss.

Infantry armor type is huge in coh.

I remember a bit off the top of my head.

Elite: more vulnerable to flamethrowers, snipers (as you said, they won't miss even on retreat), and suppression, but less vulnerable to standard small arms.

Airborne: really hard to hit, especially while they are on the move, with small arms (may have other things, I really don't remember). I think it only applies to american airborne troops.

Heroic: harder to hit, more health(? - I know that both Brit officers and knights cross holders have more than normal health by design and are heroic), takes a lot less suppression.

Soldier: some sort of middle ground between infantry (kinda default) and elite. Don't exactly remember what it is but I'm pretty sure it applies to tommies, commandos, and panzergrenadiers.
29 Sep 2017, 21:56 PM
#25
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 344

Infantry: no bonus.

Airborne: 0.75 rec. dmg., 0.75 rec. acc. while moving (vs. almost all weapons, even snipers).

Elite: 0.75 rec. acc., 0.75 rec. dmg. against 99% of small arms. 1.18 rec. dmg. from flamethrowers. 3x rec. acc. vs. snipers (they will hit you even if you're retreating through smoke and heavy cover).

Heroic: 0.85 rec. acc., 0.75 rec. dmg. 0.5 rec. supp. vs. 99% of small arms. 1.25 rec. dmg. from grenades and flamethrowers.

Soldier: 0.75 rec. dmg. against 99% of small arms. Rifleman rifles and Volk K98s have an 0.6 dmg. modifier against Soldier armor. BARs have a sidesplitting 0.4 dmg. modifier against Soldier armor and are thus functionally a downgrade against PE. 0.9 rec. dmg. from many tank main guns.

Sniper: 0.75 rec. acc. vs. 99% of small arms. 0.5 rec. acc. while moving (vs. enemy snipers only; base 0.75 rec. acc. has no effect vs. snipers).

Note: All automatic weapons in vCoH deal 0.75 of their base dmg. value against all infantry armor types, even infantry armor. Because reasons.
30 Sep 2017, 13:22 PM
#26
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2017, 21:56 PMVolsky
Infantry: no bonus.

Airborne: 0.75 rec. dmg., 0.75 rec. acc. while moving (vs. almost all weapons, even snipers).

Elite: 0.75 rec. acc., 0.75 rec. dmg. against 99% of small arms. 1.18 rec. dmg. from flamethrowers. 3x rec. acc. vs. snipers (they will hit you even if you're retreating through smoke and heavy cover).

Heroic: 0.85 rec. acc., 0.75 rec. dmg. 0.5 rec. supp. vs. 99% of small arms. 1.25 rec. dmg. from grenades and flamethrowers.

Soldier: 0.75 rec. dmg. against 99% of small arms. Rifleman rifles and Volk K98s have an 0.6 dmg. modifier against Soldier armor. BARs have a sidesplitting 0.4 dmg. modifier against Soldier armor and are thus functionally a downgrade against PE. 0.9 rec. dmg. from many tank main guns.

Sniper: 0.75 rec. acc. vs. 99% of small arms. 0.5 rec. acc. while moving (vs. enemy snipers only; base 0.75 rec. acc. has no effect vs. snipers).

Note: All automatic weapons in vCoH deal 0.75 of their base dmg. value against all infantry armor types, even infantry armor. Because reasons.


Last paragraph is incorrect. The Wehr STG 44 deals 100% of its damage to all targets. It's the only exception I can think of though.

Also someone mentioned that Grens are better than Volks on close range: Incorrect.

Grens deal superior damage than Volks in general - true. (4x 15 dmg rifles is more than 5x 10 dmg rifles). However, their long range accuracy is 40% opposed to 35% for volks. So they are much better on long range than Volks (60x0.4[24] > 50x0.35[17.5])...
30 Sep 2017, 15:52 PM
#27
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 344

You got me on the StG. Brb committing sudoku.


Grens deal superior damage than Volks in general - true. (4x 15 dmg rifles is more than 5x 10 dmg rifles). However, their long range accuracy is 40% opposed to 35% for volks. So they are much better on long range than Volks (60x0.4[24] > 50x0.35[17.5])...


My turn :3
Volks:
4x Volk K98 (dps per individual rifle):
1.229148376
2.330508475
3.851091142

1x leader gren rifle:
1.22278481
2.864150943
7.811320755

Grens:
3x Gren K98 (dps per individual rifle):
2.370500439
4.131355932
6.546854942

1x leader gren rifle:
1.22278481
2.864150943
7.811320755

Net DPS:
Volks
6.139378314
12.186184843
23.215685323

Grens
8.334286127
15.258218739
27.451885581


That said, I think Volks are better candidates to pick up any dropped BARs or LMG42s--those will offer a definite DPS boost to them and it's on a 5-man cheap-to-reinforce platform. LMG42s technically nerf Gren DPS at mid/long (iirc), though a pair of double LMG squads are basically an attack move-capable MG42 team.
30 Sep 2017, 16:02 PM
#28
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

Not really. Volks damage goes up by picking up a BAR rifle more, that's true.
However, grens are more resistant to weapon fire and supression. BARs are close range weapons and so grens will provide a better combat value than volks.

I wouldn't put this up too high though, as it's more important to pickup the BAR in general before your enemy gets it back. The squad it's on is secondary in that case.
30 Sep 2017, 17:09 PM
#29
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

Grens are the better choice hands down. Not only is their DPS better at all ranges, but of course they get elite armour at Vet-2 (which volks do not), and they have 80 health per model vs 55 of regular Volks.
22 Oct 2017, 08:49 AM
#30
avatar of LegioxRoma

Posts: 267

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2017, 17:09 PMNosliw
Grens are the better choice hands down. Not only is their DPS better at all ranges, but of course they get elite armour at Vet-2 (which volks do not), and they have 80 health per model vs 55 of regular Volks.

Nosliw is always a good teacher :D
22 Oct 2017, 11:28 AM
#31
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193


Nosliw is always a good teacher :D


Good thing that I wrote the same ~1 hour earlier...
22 Oct 2017, 11:57 AM
#32
avatar of LegioxRoma

Posts: 267



Good thing that I wrote the same ~1 hour earlier...

Well u said pretty the same thing but it's my common way to call nosliw like that so it was a good chance to write there as well
22 Oct 2017, 19:11 PM
#33
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



Good thing that I wrote the same ~1 hour earlier...


Didn't read your mathematical wall of text brah I just spit my own knowledge in a short sentence or two. Don't hate
22 Oct 2017, 23:02 PM
#34
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 193

Not really. Volks damage goes up by picking up a BAR rifle more, that's true.
However, grens are more resistant to weapon fire and supression. BARs are close range weapons and so grens will provide a better combat value than volks.



jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2017, 17:09 PMNosliw
Grens are the better choice hands down. Not only is their DPS better at all ranges, but of course they get elite armour at Vet-2 (which volks do not), and they have 80 health per model vs 55 of regular Volks.


Yeah, mathematical wall of text brah. No hatin' brah. Gud 2 hev smart player.

however on thing that is more important:

It's more important to pickup the BAR in general before your enemy gets it back. The squad it's on is secondary in that case.
23 Oct 2017, 04:33 AM
#35
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

I don't appreciate you mocking me
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