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Morale, a possible solution to blobbing?

6 Jun 2017, 18:59 PM
#1
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Hello, so I just thought of this today after watching this video about Dawn of War III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Yk2IjxHLQ

Arch brought up Dawn of War's morale system which got me thinking, what if CoH, CoH 2 and any future Company of Heroes games had a morale system similar to Dawn of War's one?

Morale was basically a different but similar suppression system where a squad could be "broken" by heavy incoming fire or taking a lot of casualties, reducing the unit's effectiveness and making the squad prone to being easily wiped out.

Now I'm not sure how this would work in CoH, but I remember a few of CoH's mods had a "surrender" mechanic where a squad would surrender if: it took a lot of casualties, was against overwhelming odds or it was taking on immense fire, it was either one of the 3 or a combination but I'm not so sure how it was caused exactly, but the squad just surrendered if the criteria was met.

So how I would imagine it would work in CoH 2 would be that you had a secondary bar, above the or under the health bar, like in DoW, where morale would be. This bar would indicate your squad's morale.

So, it would basically combine with the suppression system when facing MGs, but only the morale would be put into effect during ordinary combat.

If a squad meets with an overwhelming force, or sustains many casualties (or other squads around it sustain heavy casualties, or get wiped out) or takes a lot of incoming enemy fire, it's morale will drop and the unit will be rendered less effective, so a smart player would be wise as to spread out his units more instead of just bunching them up and A-moving them altogether. So instead of just getting a debuff from just having a lot of units in a single area, you would lose morale and get suppressed from an active factor, not a passive such, which would be more logical.

So if you have 3 squads, and decide to move them altogether to a single area, they wouldn't get a debuff, but if they are met with a similar or smaller force in a better position, which is not in the open, they will not be able to roflstomp them because of 2 things: You will lose more morale if you are not in cover, and you will lose morale because of the amount of troops you will lose until you reach said enemy's covered position, so having the tactical advantage of having units in a better position will win the battle.

However, if even one or 2 squads are in a good position behind heavy cover, they will not be able to hold out against enemies that are coming from multiple directions or are out-flanking them, again having the tactical advantage win you the battle.

So cover will be a huge factor for morale, just like it was in the first DoW. You could just take it as a similar fight to an MG, you can't just roflstomp an MG with a blob head on, most of the time, because you will get suppressed, so you try to flank it somehow and come at it from different directions. The situation with morale would be similar, altho the "broken" squad would not be suppressed or pinned like it would be from an MG, unless there are loads of weapons aimed at the squad, but would take more casualties and would be less effective since it wouldn't be in a tactically advantageous position.

Now, a few things here, first of all, I am not sure if this has been brought up before, if it has, I apologise but I haven't noticed it.

And second, yes, an anti-blob debuff would be easier, less complex and faster, but what I propose is a smarter and easier for casuals system that would not only help the competitive people of the community, but the casual part of the community as well, because of the added graphic of a "morale bar" and the easier explanation of "morale" rather than just telling someone they will get a debuff if they stack their units together.

I am not sure how to implement this, or how much performance it would take compared to the simple anti-blobbing debuff, but I just thought I'd throw it out there as an idea, maybe someone with the necessary modding knowledge, experience and time will be able to whip up something presentable so we can see if my idea will actually work.

Well, that's about it, sorry for my long paragraphs of text but I'm trying to cover all possible angles and questions about my idea.

Cheers and have a nice day.
6 Jun 2017, 19:03 PM
#2
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

Interesting idea. Would take a lot to implement though, and I'm sure there's some unthought-of abusable cheese for it (then again, what isn't abusable in this game?) and might still sometimes lead to head-butting blob-fests in order to break enemy morale, especially on maps without a lot of good cover.
6 Jun 2017, 19:05 PM
#3
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

I honestly don't think it would work. Taking ideas from a blobfest game such as DoW3 is not exactly the best way to reduce blobbing.
6 Jun 2017, 19:09 PM
#4
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Interesting idea. Would take a lot to implement though, and I'm sure there's some unthought-of abusable cheese for it (then again, what isn't abusable in this game?) and might still sometimes lead to head-butting blob-fests in order to break enemy morale, especially on maps without a lot of good cover.


Agreed, fighting on open ground with a similar amount of units would be largely left to RNG or the type of unit, so if my idea would be implemented, Riflemen would rolfstomp Grenadiers and Volksgrenadiers because of the simple fact that they can lay down more fire than the enemy in a shorter amount of time because of their Garands, however, due to the Grenadiers' "eliteness", they wouldn't be so easily "broken".

Similar thing when both sides would have an equal amount of units in cover, the type of cover, the type of unit and RNG would again play a huge role.
6 Jun 2017, 19:10 PM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I honestly don't think it would work. Taking ideas from a blobfest game such as DoW3 is not exactly the best way to reduce blobbing.


Nobody said DoW3, I said the first DoW, or simply DoW.
6 Jun 2017, 19:12 PM
#6
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3

Blobbing has a solution, suppression + indirect fire, or grouping your own units while you harass the map.
6 Jun 2017, 19:25 PM
#7
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Blobbing has a solution, suppression + indirect fire, or grouping your own units while you harass the map.


2 problems.

You can't have an MG and mortar everywhere at once, or a suppression vehicle for that matter.

That is, at every possible area where the enemy could blob.

And fighting a blob with a blob will again be entirely left to RNG and the quality of units if both sides are met on an equal playing field, that is, both being in the open or in cover.

My idea would just raise the chance of a tactical advantage winning over just plain blobbing.

You can't entirely eliminate RNG and the other factors such as the quality of units because the game is based around that, but you can lower it, sometimes sadly through more complex systems like my idea.
6 Jun 2017, 19:34 PM
#8
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

DanielD is right but you need to add something more. Most players fail against blobs becouse they do one of two things:
- either they try to cover all the approaches with mgs - which is cool against typical flanks but happens to fail miserably vs blobs - one mg is not enought to supress them, even frontally, becouse of sheer firepower
- or they try to blow the blob up the blob which is much better but also often fails becouse if somebody is having only one controll group to micro then it is almost sure that he will be able to dodge artillery and he will have a sweeper squad inside of it.

What really can be done is scouting - the most underutilised part of coh2 gameplay. If you see the blob coming from afar then you can position your mgs in that direction. 2 are most often often enough. Sometimes more if they are weak mgs and the blob is huge. But it is always cheaper than the blob itself.

So yes - if you scout the mg can cover everywhere at once - becouse you know where to cover. You can also use your artillery better and prepare better flanks that way. But hey, most players just prefer to continue to complain how blobby the game is.
6 Jun 2017, 19:44 PM
#9
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3



2 problems.

You can't have an MG and mortar everywhere at once, or a suppression vehicle for that matter.

That is, at every possible area where the enemy could blob.

And fighting a blob with a blob will again be entirely left to RNG and the quality of units if both sides are met on an equal playing field, that is, both being in the open or in cover.

My idea would just raise the chance of a tactical advantage winning over just plain blobbing.

You can't entirely eliminate RNG and the other factors such as the quality of units because the game is based around that, but you can lower it, sometimes sadly through more complex systems like my idea.


You only need an mg and a mortar where the blob is. As to your other point, the maps are asymmetric so there's no need to take 50 50 fights
6 Jun 2017, 19:53 PM
#10
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2



You only need an mg and a mortar where the blob is. As to your other point, the maps are asymmetric so there's no need to take 50 50 fights


Maps may be asymmetric but most maps are open enough to have multiple flanking routes from which blobs can annihilate you.

Plus ferwinter's other 2 points are very much valid, the first being about scouting out the enemy's blob and the second being that if the enemy is blobbing hard enough it will eventually overrun your MG even if it has mortar support due to the amount of firepower.

So yes, I don't believe having an MG and a mortar on standby all of the time to fight blobs is effective or practical for MOST people, especially casuals.

Lots of things could happen and do happen, for example you need that MG to cover a particular choke point on the map, if you notice a blob coming at you from a different position you would need to displace the MG, which would mean you'd lose that position and besides, if you don't act fast or are caught off guard the MG is dead.

Or you leave the MG and mortar in place and make another MG and mortar, or just MG, but then again it might be too late for them and by the time they hit the field you would already be screwed over by the blob.
6 Jun 2017, 20:01 PM
#11
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3

I'm not gonna spend too much more effort on this since you seem intent on arguing blobs are uncounterable.

If your opponent is blobbing, you need to use at least an equal number of forces to fight them. That mg doesn't have to hold ground somewhere if the blob is elsewhere.

Also you missed the other guys point since he was agreeing with me.

Edit: this thread has inspired me to write a strategy guide about blobbing, so I will save further points and advice for that.
6 Jun 2017, 20:21 PM
#12
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I'm not gonna spend too much more effort on this since you seem intent on arguing blobs are uncounterable.

If your opponent is blobbing, you need to use at least an equal number of forces to fight them. That mg doesn't have to hold ground somewhere if the blob is elsewhere.

Also you missed the other guys point since he was agreeing with me.

Edit: this thread has inspired me to write a strategy guide about blobbing, so I will save further points and advice for that.


You're mistaken if you think I'm arguing about blobbing being impossible to counter, I'm arguing on the fact that for a pro it's very easy to counter, the problem comes for the lesser experienced players for which this comes as a bigger frustration to deal with.

I only want to ease the way in which blobbing is countered.
6 Jun 2017, 20:36 PM
#13
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 781 | Subs: 3

Ah, my mistake. There is a very casual counter to blobs though, which is to make one mg and also blob. A mortar instead of an mg also works.

I don't think there's any way a new system will be added to the game, that's why I'm providing solutions here.
6 Jun 2017, 20:44 PM
#14
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Ah, my mistake. There is a very casual counter to blobs though, which is to make one mg and also blob. A mortar instead of an mg also works.

I don't think there's any way a new system will be added to the game, that's why I'm providing solutions here.


There is a way if only the community balance team would listen.

I'd implement this myself but sadly I don't have the time anymore, nor do I have their modding experience and knowledge, I haven't touched the tools in months and whatever mods I had developed are probably for the scrap yard anyhow because the updates probably broke their majority so wasting time on updating them would basically be the same as starting from the beginning for which again, I have no time.
6 Jun 2017, 20:49 PM
#15
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2229 | Subs: 1

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198038732900


998 posts talking about a game he has exactly 12 games in. Best requirements for suggestions to change game mechanics.
6 Jun 2017, 21:06 PM
#16
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198038732900


998 posts talking about a game he has exactly 12 games in. Best requirements for suggestions to change game mechanics.


I had a hunch you'd show up here, my gut hasn't lied to me for the past 2 months.

As for your argument, I've said many times that I am not a competitive person, I represent the casual part of the community, which is the also the bigger part of the community, that just plays for fun after a long and hard day of work, something which you probably haven't experienced.

I have more than a thousand hours in game, which is still experience, I may not face pro opponents, but I still may face similar situations as the rest of you on these forums, so my points and feedback are still valid.

Oh and, I am not vouching for changing game mechanics, as I said in the main topic, which you probably didn't entirely read, I'm just throwing ideas out there I had come up with in hopes that if implemented, may ease people with the frustration of facing blobs all of the time.

That's all.
6 Jun 2017, 21:19 PM
#17
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198038732900


998 posts talking about a game he has exactly 12 games in. Best requirements for suggestions to change game mechanics.


And here you are, never offering any solutions or suggestions, only whining about playercards.
6 Jun 2017, 21:32 PM
#18
avatar of Dyzfunction

Posts: 73

CoH3 should just have anti-blob units like we have now. Sturmtigers, Short range Katy's, Calliopes, mines and demo charges, stuka, dive bomb, etc.

honestly the only thing that makes blobs super annoying is when they double wield certain weapons. Tommies with double brens all blobbed up can annihilate absolutely anything that isn't bulletproof nearly instantly. Or RE blobs with double zooks can kill a KT in just a couple vollies.

But most of the time when I see a blob I see a huge opportunity to make the other team rage quit by bringing out the ST, Katy, calliope, or whatever it may be.
6 Jun 2017, 21:46 PM
#19
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

CoH3 should just have anti-blob units like we have now. Sturmtigers, Short range Katy's, Calliopes, mines and demo charges, stuka, dive bomb, etc.

honestly the only thing that makes blobs super annoying is when they double wield certain weapons. Tommies with double brens all blobbed up can annihilate absolutely anything that isn't bulletproof nearly instantly. Or RE blobs with double zooks can kill a KT in just a couple vollies.

But most of the time when I see a blob I see a huge opportunity to make the other team rage quit by bringing out the ST, Katy, calliope, or whatever it may be.


And what if CoH 3 is based on the Africa or Pacific fronts, we bring in specialized units from there? Why limit yourself with doctrinal units, when new systems could be implemented to combat issues?

And how about melee? Relic missed a huge opportunity by not implementing melee combat in CoH 2 because the most savage melee combat was on the Eastern Front, the Pacific came a close second to that.

There are many unexplored territories which Relic can explore, I see no sense in limiting ourselves to what already exists.

We need to think outside the boundaries, or we may never evolve.
6 Jun 2017, 23:02 PM
#20
avatar of ruzen
Patrion 15

Posts: 243

As an idea, It looks interesting but I don't think It's ever going to work in CoH. CoH is already deep strategy game we may not like It (with good reasons) but CoHs engine allows very complex situations. COH2 tried cold tech, and It showed how overburdening players is not a fun idea. For singleplayer focus games, It's very much doable. With morale systems calculating nearby casualties, will only put more distance to the main purpose of the game: A multiplayer RTS game.

As I always say CoH design heavily depends on map makers skill. Making CoH map is very hard thing to do, unlike other rts games. The person should be at least play well but knows pretty much most of the things about CoH. He/She have to consider everything, blobing, brit cancer, Allies room to flank, Axis room to breathe, choke points, tank vision blockers, etc..

What I'm trying to say is maps have more influence over most of the things happening in CoH series but maybe few rules changing in CoH2 (such as MAX POP CAP all time) could be leading people to do more blob, unknowingly.
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