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OKW's early game over-dominance

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5 Apr 2017, 17:36 PM
#41
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2017, 17:25 PMwongtp

so now what is an allied player going to do against an army that can upgun themselves without the need for side-grades, free access to nades, infantry that have a distinct stat advantage against their own and having their clutch units nerfed?


If you are having trouble dealing with voks stgs I recommend you post some replays here for tips. Upgraded riflemen, tommies, and guards will be winning against volks, you may be doing something wrong.


Can you still answer my questions plz ?

Taking away battlegroup retreat without touching the other factions retreat points would be the worst.
Stuka can be adjusted but I don't think it needs it.
IR ht needs changes, but it would be the least missed imo.
5 Apr 2017, 17:39 PM
#42
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 967

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2017, 17:25 PMwongtp


well things did improve, but aint good enough.

look at the stupidly crazy vet they can get, this vet was given to them because okw was designed around elite units and resource starved. now they are no longer resource starved nor in anyway have units that players have to pay a premium for. they are priced similarly to any other regular unit.

not only that, taking out schrecks and replacing them with stg44s makes volks an elite assault unit, able to wreck infantry enmassed, throw nades and practically bully infantry fights. other factions have inherent weaknesses. soviets have practically trash infantry, UKF tommies +mg combo are okay but fails against so many stg44s. USA rifles match volks man for man generally unless they can close in, which is not practical when sturmpios are lurking about. but then again volks are cheaper and thus would be happy to trade with riflemen.

on top of that, tommies and rifles have to spend mp/fuel to unlock their weapon racks in order to be able to put out enough firepower to deter a charge from massed volks, who are now even more deadly with stg44s that require no side-grade to unlock and also free flame nades.

now, ALL allied light vehicles(AEC, stuart, T70) are nerfed to a point where they no longer do meaningful damage to an infantry swarm and are only used to hunting down other light vehicles. but their low damage per shot means they arent great at that either.

so now what is an allied player going to do against an army that can upgun themselves without the need for side-grades, free access to nades, infantry that have a distinct stat advantage against their own and having their clutch units nerfed?


Add to the mentioned above, the 3 problematic factors i underlined and you've a rather no so fun game for the allies...(team format)
5 Apr 2017, 18:05 PM
#43
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2017, 17:36 PMTobis


If you are having trouble dealing with voks stgs I recommend you post some replays here for tips. Upgraded riflemen, tommies, and guards will be winning against volks, you may be doing something wrong.


oh dont get me wrong, i have no problems with dealing with volks stg. i find it unfair for an okw player to have access to such powerful and cheap infantry on top of having a capable rooster.

i understand stg volks can be controlled with upgraded rifles and tommies, but all these dont come free, they require research, fuel and then munitions. guards are great units, but are 360 per pop and further 75munitions to be effective. but they are not as cost effective as volks and there are probably going to be more volks with vet by the time guards are on the field. bum rushing guards and abuse volks short range dps is going to beat guards hands down, no contest, while conscripts shoot uselessly at volks.

stg volks is just part of the major problem, whatever other armies can do, okw is can achieve, except often with better units, lesser micro and allowance for more errors.

this is just vcoh ranger/airborne spam all over again. sure there are counters, but it will be harder and far more taxing to counter.
5 Apr 2017, 18:12 PM
#44
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2017, 13:26 PMDangIT
I understand that this faction is designed to have an early advantage. You want to dominate me early game, OK, I get it. But why does it have to be at this scale? Please answer the following questions;

  • Why does the kubelwagon cost no fuel?
  • Why is it able to both cap and kill? Why is it mounted with a free LMG34? Isn't %15 faster cap rate alone good enough?
  • Why do sturmpioneers are the starting unit?
  • Why does the best AI light tank in game had it cost reduced? LMFAO, Is this how you nerf the LV rush meta?
  • Why is the Mowing Stuka, the most devastating mobile arty in game, available after 10 minutes? And it costs less than a Calli?




Discuss this like a civilized human, without raging or intolerant behavior.


The OKW are too strong in the early game on some maps.

I actually like the idea of a fast capping unit that is used for scouting, like the Kettenkrad from COH1. It also doesn't really have an MG 34, in the sense that its damage is not equivalent to say the Obers MG34. Really the appearance of the gun is the only similarity.

The other pieces you mention are faction design and not related to OP'ness necessarily. If you would like suggestions on how to deal with OKW in the early game I encourage you to post a replay in the Replay Review forum. We are happy to help and we can talk specifically about strengths/weaknesses of a faction.
5 Apr 2017, 20:02 PM
#45
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

tobis, your arguing with a guy about OKW, who doesn't even play the faction in in the first place.

5 Apr 2017, 20:36 PM
#46
avatar of GhostTX

Posts: 315

Make volley fire on the RE useful again, and the early OKW Kubels with SP capping machine dominance is now nerfed. USF chooses to use muni to stave off OKW push, or not, and OKW chooose push harder for early capping or not.
6 Apr 2017, 07:40 AM
#47
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2017, 18:05 PMwongtp


capable rooster

Hey, that's what I named my dick.
6 Apr 2017, 08:05 AM
#48
avatar of Gluhoman

Posts: 380

Okw early game is fine. Maybe on some maps kubel can trade enemy health squads with the health of himselfe and then just repair it, meanwhile brits, sovs and usf have to tech to heal thier squads. Therefore allies have wounded squads because of kubel which means that it will be easier for volks to fight with enemy squads. Also to my mind pz2 comes too early. Everything else is fine. However after the gsg patch maxim is getting nerfed and sov early game will be dead vs okw.
6 Apr 2017, 10:51 AM
#49
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

OKW is one of the most changed factions in the game.

It's just been messed with so much that it no longer represents what it was designed to be, which is the entire problem.

Lots of the changes here would fix some problems but make others significantly worse.
6 Apr 2017, 12:53 PM
#50
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1



Add to the mentioned above, the 3 problematic factors i underlined and you've a rather no so fun game for the allies...(team format)


I know people don't play this game to be competitive and i know that people like to play it in with their friends in set teams playing the same factions and armies and that is just how you want to do it. That's fine, you paid for the game and you can play it any way you choose.

But for the love of god just play 20 axis games just to see what it's like facing Calliopes, Kattys, landmatresses, Mortar pits, 120mm mortars, Pak howies, auto repairing emplacements, Bofors with barrage, USF retreat points that can move, Brit ones that can equip units with LMG's and Soviet t-34'76 spam.

6 Apr 2017, 13:06 PM
#51
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 967



I know people don't play this game to be competitive and i know that people like to play it in with their friends in set teams playing the same factions and armies and that is just how you want to do it. That's fine, you paid for the game and you can play it any way you choose.

But for the love of god just play 20 axis games just to see what it's like facing Calliopes, Kattys, landmatresses, Mortar pits, 120mm mortars, Pak howies, auto repairing emplacements, Bofors with barrage, USF retreat points that can move, Brit ones that can equip units with LMG's and Soviet t-34'76 spam.



It's the starting phase that matter, the first 10-12 minutes. The loses there are critical because of the snowballing effect it's cause.

All of you mentioned come later in the game.

I did watch so many games in so many formats...and played so many games...

Use your own in-game experience, when you analyse the problematic factors.
Those are the majors offender when playing team formats.

Thanks for your comments.

6 Apr 2017, 14:08 PM
#52
avatar of Raddish

Posts: 20

A good few of those mentioned come well within the first 10 minutes. Hell mortar pits are available right at the start as I recall. And then the Bofors isn't that far in.

120mm is dependent on points but still before 10mins easy
6 Apr 2017, 14:54 PM
#53
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1



It's the starting phase that matter, the first 10-12 minutes. The loses there are critical because of the snowballing effect it's cause.

All of you mentioned come later in the game.

I did watch so many games in so many formats...and played so many games...

Use your own in-game experience, when you analyse the problematic factors.
Those are the majors offender when playing team formats.

Thanks for your comments.



As Raddish pointed out some of these things come pretty soon after or before the 10/12 min mark and if you are losing squads that early in the game then I believe it is your own fault. One squad loss shouldn't allow the enemy team to snowball over you.

Apologies for an overly aggressive response but the general consensus of players who play ALL the factions is that axis lose out in team games specifically because of weaker artillery/indirect fire and worse 'emplacements'. Axis also tend to have smaller squads meaning indirect fire wipes them faster. (I'll leave tanks out of this one).

6 Apr 2017, 15:08 PM
#54
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 967

I'won't try to convince you, but as far i'm concerned, the team formats are not balanced enough anymore to be fun.

Hoping for a miracle, I'still want to play this game.
6 Apr 2017, 15:13 PM
#55
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578



Apologies for an overly aggressive response but the general consensus of players who play ALL the factions is that axis lose out in team games specifically because of weaker artillery/indirect fire and worse 'emplacements'. Axis also tend to have smaller squads meaning indirect fire wipes them faster. (I'll leave tanks out of this one).


As well you should; Axis tanks are definitely much more powerful than Allied ones (the UKF being an exception, along with some heavies / call ins). But don't lump the Katyusha in with the Calliope, they aren't on the same level. And the Stuka isn't on the same level as the Katy either (the Stuka being stronger). And the land mattress is rather obscene, yes; but the UKF is obscene in many ways.

Anyway my point is, try not to generalise. Certain units get spammed and seem unbalanced; this doesn't mean that Axis factions 'lose out' in team games.
6 Apr 2017, 23:23 PM
#56
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

I'won't try to convince you, but as far i'm concerned, the team formats are not balanced enough anymore to be fun.

Hoping for a miracle, I'still want to play this game.


The game was never balanced for a team arena and never will be. It's always been heavily swung in one way or another. I don't know if you saw when the Brits were first released but they were stupid overpowered and playing large team games as Axis was just an exercise in futility; the game is just all over the place.

It is largely going to depend on the map though.
7 Apr 2017, 01:14 AM
#57
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 967

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2017, 23:23 PMNano


The game was never balanced for a team arena and never will be. It's always been heavily swung in one way or another. I don't know if you saw when the Brits were first released but they were stupid overpowered and playing large team games as Axis was just an exercise in futility; the game is just all over the place.

It is largely going to depend on the map though.


You speak the truth, but for now the exercise in futility is on the Allies side...
7 Apr 2017, 01:27 AM
#58
avatar of Ulaire Minya

Posts: 372

No insult to Findeed, but you really don't understand how multiple okw players in 3's/4's break the game and snowball hard with their FRP BHQ set up around important areas 4 minutes into the game. It's almost impossible to beat when they retreat ~30 meters and you have to retreat half the length of the map.
7 Apr 2017, 02:02 AM
#59
avatar of Cafo

Posts: 245

I thought okw had to start paying for flame nade unlock... how do you justify paying 40 fuel and 300 mp for USF nades and weapons when okw gets dat unlock for free and dont you be saying free squads. if anything you should be giving usf that scavenge ability these days.. 25 fuel for nades please...
7 Apr 2017, 02:18 AM
#60
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

No insult to Findeed, but you really don't understand how multiple okw players in 3's/4's break the game and snowball hard with their FRP BHQ set up around important areas 4 minutes into the game. It's almost impossible to beat when they retreat ~30 meters and you have to retreat half the length of the map.


You can say that yes you can dominate early with forward HQs with OKW but it soon comes to an end when multiple players start smacking buildings with indirect fire. Teamwork is the real key to dealing with it. Unfortunately team work is not something that happens very often in pub 3v3 or 4v4s.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2017, 02:02 AMCafo
I thought okw had to start paying for flame nade unlock... how do you justify paying 40 fuel and 300 mp for USF nades and weapons when okw gets dat unlock for free and dont you be saying free squads. if anything you should be giving usf that scavenge ability these days.. 25 fuel for nades please...


If you don't give OKW nades essentially as soon as the game starts they will have 0 non doctrinal methods of clearing out garrisons. It's a dumb situation but that's the the reality of it.
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