So with the introduction of the land mattress I've seen a lot of complaints about artillery spam, and the problem was there even before the arrival of the British and other Allied rocket artillery like the Calliope.
So, I decided to make this poll to see how much people would like to see the old limit of CoH on artillery come back, since in the old game, with the arrival of the Panzer Elite and British came along Self-Propelled Artillery in the form of the M7 Priest and Hummel, which were later limited to 3 each to combat spam, perhaps this is also needed in CoH 2 for the same reasons but instead of just limiting call-in artillery I propose we also limited non-doctrinal one, for example you can't get more than 3 Panzerwerfers and 3 Katyushas, the support guns of the Western Front Armies are up for debate as well as the British mortars, and I don't think the Eastern Front mortars should also have the limit as they're not as effective or spammed as much, or at least that's what I've noticed. So yeah, this is generally it, cheers.
Should Artillery be limited, and if so, to how much?
8 Mar 2016, 13:28 PM
#1
Posts: 3143 | Subs: 2
8 Mar 2016, 13:37 PM
#2
Posts: 232
Limits are generally a bad way to design and balance the game. It restricts what options you have and if carried far enough would railroad everyone into the same builds.
Instead the game is balanced around the notion that you can build whatever you like, but it will have weaknesses. Sure you can spam 4 or 5 arty units, just don't expect it to stop a tank rush.
Instead the game is balanced around the notion that you can build whatever you like, but it will have weaknesses. Sure you can spam 4 or 5 arty units, just don't expect it to stop a tank rush.
8 Mar 2016, 13:49 PM
#3
Posts: 1124
Each player should only build 2 arty piece of each kind. For example. 1 player can build 2 katys, and 2 howitzer.. or 2 panzerwerfer and 2 lefh.
8 Mar 2016, 14:04 PM
#4
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
From someone who only plays 1s and 2s (which the game is balanced around) this doesn't seem like a good idea - if someone goes super heavy on artillery they usually get punished for it enough by not having enough screening troops and will get overrun. I can see how this might be an issue in larger team games but I think its best to not limit strategies by artificial limits if a team wants one player to be mainly indirect fire. Afterall, the draw of larger team games is for teammates to make up for each other's army weaknesses like that.
8 Mar 2016, 14:14 PM
#5
Posts: 160
Probably a good idea.
we have seen in the esl cups how often it happens, that someone spammed the calliope.
Even the heavy tank limit to 1 was a great idea, because it forces u to use combined arms.
This game should be about combined arms flanks etc. and not only spam 1 unit and win...
and ppl who only play 1's know that more than one katyusha could be your death.
we have seen in the esl cups how often it happens, that someone spammed the calliope.
Even the heavy tank limit to 1 was a great idea, because it forces u to use combined arms.
This game should be about combined arms flanks etc. and not only spam 1 unit and win...
and ppl who only play 1's know that more than one katyusha could be your death.
Aka Danny
8 Mar 2016, 15:35 PM
#6
Posts: 673
If someone spams artillery - he is already lost that game. That's how it usually works.
You always need no more than 2 howitzers/rocket platforms. Getting 1 or 2 more will not add too much firepower to your artillery group, but will steal from you valuable MP income and eat your popcap. So, all reasonable players always making no more than 2 artilleries per player even without limits.
You always need no more than 2 howitzers/rocket platforms. Getting 1 or 2 more will not add too much firepower to your artillery group, but will steal from you valuable MP income and eat your popcap. So, all reasonable players always making no more than 2 artilleries per player even without limits.
8 Mar 2016, 18:24 PM
#7
Posts: 3143 | Subs: 2
Limits are generally a bad way to design and balance the game. It restricts what options you have and if carried far enough would railroad everyone into the same builds.
Instead the game is balanced around the notion that you can build whatever you like, but it will have weaknesses. Sure you can spam 4 or 5 arty units, just don't expect it to stop a tank rush.
Why the limit on Heavy Tanks then? I mean, if what you say is true, I don't see a point in the heavy tank limit being 1. Yeah sure it's not the same type of unit but still, it's a limit, something which you're opposed to.
8 Mar 2016, 18:35 PM
#8
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
I'd much prefer artillery units being limited with an appropriate power level to compensate. People who hate arty spam and people who like using arty at all win.
Though I'll admit, even that limitation could be hard to balance around. We certainly don't want arty to be reliably one-shotting infantry squads or shooting every 20 seconds to balance themselves, suppression on all of them would probably have to happen.
Though I'll admit, even that limitation could be hard to balance around. We certainly don't want arty to be reliably one-shotting infantry squads or shooting every 20 seconds to balance themselves, suppression on all of them would probably have to happen.
8 Mar 2016, 18:36 PM
#9
Posts: 232
Why the limit on Heavy Tanks then? I mean, if what you say is true, I don't see a point in the heavy tank limit being 1. Yeah sure it's not the same type of unit but still, it's a limit, something which you're opposed to.
The heavy tank limit has two reasons.
First was that most of the heavies are tech free call ins. There was a period where avoiding tech costs and simply spamming late game heavies was the dominant strategy.
The second is that the heavies are (mostly) powerful generalist units. With a Tiger or King Tiger you can be reasonably confident in most fights. This is also why the Churchill is labelled a heavy tank but not limited - it simply doesn't have the offensive power that limited heavies like the IS-2 have. Following on from the first point, end game fights also turned into heavies vs heavies all the time. It wasn't interesting or particularly fun.
It wasn't an ideal way to deal with it, but it's what we got. Arguably there were also a few units caught up in it that had a "natural" limit anyway - few people every bothered with more than one Elephant or Jagdtiger anyway.
8 Mar 2016, 18:50 PM
#10
Posts: 680
Can't see any good reason why you'd need more than 2 ISGs, mortar pits or Rocket Arty pieces so yes, would be a change for the better in my opinion.
8 Mar 2016, 18:53 PM
#11
Posts: 656
Why the limit on Heavy Tanks then? I mean, if what you say is true, I don't see a point in the heavy tank limit being 1. Yeah sure it's not the same type of unit but still, it's a limit, something which you're opposed to.
Heavy tanks are generalist units with no major weaknesses that are capable of combating everything on the field hence why the tanks are limited to 1. Even a long range tank destroyer will struggle to deal with a heavy alone. Before the limit was imposed the safest strategy was often to just try to produce more heavies than your opponent. This is not the case for arty which has a very clear weaknesses to offmap strikes (for static arty at least) and zero field presence. Producing too much arty will leave your army at a very significant MP or fuel disadvantage that a competent opponent can exploit to destroy said arty.
8 Mar 2016, 19:12 PM
#12
Posts: 275 | Subs: 1
If someone spams artillery - he is already lost that game. That's how it usually works.
+1
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
8 Mar 2016, 20:16 PM
#13
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
Heavy tanks are generalist units with no major weaknesses that are capable of combating everything on the field hence why the tanks are limited to 1. Even a long range tank destroyer will struggle to deal with a heavy alone. Before the limit was imposed the safest strategy was often to just try to produce more heavies than your opponent. This is not the case for arty which has a very clear weaknesses to offmap strikes (for static arty at least) and zero field presence.
Speaking of which, that's something I'd gladly have changed at the cost of being limited to one of them.
Stuka Dive Bombs and other like ensuring any static howitzer is a waste of time and MP just ain't right.
8 Mar 2016, 21:02 PM
#14
Posts: 21
I don't like so much arty either. My favorite part of the game is the early to early-mid. I feel it's more strategic, and I personally just enjoy it better. Once all you see are shrek blobs and non-stop arty, I start to get annoyed at all the chaos. Then again, I guess it reflects the chaos of war. Arty in the game right now is pretty abundant, and pretty good, and I think they just really want people to move away from blobbing so much, which I can understand. For now I just deal with it hoping people will lay off the shrek blobs, but I would like to see arty toned down eventually.
8 Mar 2016, 21:27 PM
#15
Posts: 199
Why put a limit that prevents it when you can just add a an increased cost to every one you build on top of what you already have? For example you build the first stuka/kat/werf/callio ect at base cost and then everyone you build whilst the existing one lives costs x% more.
If someone is really dug in then you can still make the choice but it comes at a cost.
If someone is really dug in then you can still make the choice but it comes at a cost.
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