Double M1919 Rifles

Not really a problem. For cost, all units that get lmgs are fine.

The issue you are having in this case is: riflemen elite infantry vet 3 bonus & grens being fragile as always.

Lol and I laugh at people saying obers are OP. 400 mp 60 munitions. t4 inf. OP OP.

Snipers beat lmg rifles easily anyway. You should know better than to get more than 1-2 grens vs US and UKF because their scaling is garbage in comparison. They also cost significantly less. At 240 mp 60 munitions. The sole issue is riflemen vet 3, in a m1919 vs ost scenario. Not the fact m1919s can be dual equipped.

Mgs, snipers, and ostruppen always vs western allies.

The issue you are having in this case is: riflemen elite infantry vet 3 bonus & grens being fragile as always.

this. terminator + double m1919a6 = juggernaut.

Oh, ok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ExuAo1Kaus Tell jove that he is bad player and GiA is much better because he almost outplayed him because double brownings on rifles xDD

jove is not even among the 10 best players in this game, he just plays a lot

PS: I lost that game pls watch the replay first before using it as an argument

But lets not act like Ostheer doesn't have snipers that straight up rape especially in a pair late game,command tank boosted inf and support weapons, Panzerwerfer, or anything late game to stop or bleed those Uber rifle blobs. That's just bs.

This.

Why are we getting complaints about how 1-LMG Vet 3 Grens suck vs. Vet 3, dual LMG Rifles?

No shit, that's a 280 MP squad w/ 120 munitions worth of weapons vs. a 240 MP squad w/ 60 munitions worth of weapons.

I feel like if you see your opponent going for a heavy infantry + LMG army, it's time to give up trying to 1v1 their infantry because you're not going to do it as Ostheer. Adapt and respond w/ Snipers and bleed the shit out of the USF player... it's not like Rifles are cheap to reinforce. You have Tellers to 1-shot any light vehicles that chase, and of course MG42s to maintain map control and protect Paks.

At that point, you've more than negated the advantage of the LMG Rifles if 2 models are dying before they even get to do any damage. And you'll probably get some free LMGs for your trouble.

I think the problem with LMGs is so pervasive is because there is a certain expectation players have about CoH gameplay. Infantry maneuvering from cover to cover, long range in-cover standoffs for "fix-and-flank" gameplay. This is what people know and love since CoH1. Everything just flows smoothly from there, the formula is expanded on by MGs, smoke, mortars, light vehicles, AT guns, tanks... it's a natural progression that serves to facilitate, or fortify against, aforementioned front breakthroughs.

The problem with LMG troops in general, and double LMG Rifles, is that they take a big dump all over the above formula. Anything that inflicts significant, consistent long range infantry DPS (including snipers, which someone mentioned in this thread for this exact reason) just upends the fix'n'flank gameplay. Yeah I could wait for tanks or mortars, but you know what, I'll just sit my LMG troops in cover and bleed you out.

Any tactic that one has to resort to sniper cheese to counter is provably absolute bullshit.

You can say, rightfully, that US have no nondoctrinal mortar, and their MG is locked behind tech and generally dies to a light breeze. Does that mean Riflemen should pick up all the slack?

I feel LMG42 Grenadiers are skirting the upper levels of what should be acceptable, and I will tolerate Obers considering their cost, role and tier placement.

There is no way to fix this without making the 1919 take up two weapon slots, which would be overkill and making it greatly superior to, say, LMG42 in return, would not make sense fluffwise.

Personally I would love it if LMG teams had to be deployed / packed up but not like the HMGs, just let them have a large delay (~3 seconds?) where the squad has to be stationary before the LMG (any LMG) can start firing. If the LMG has to change facing, the counter is reset. This would at least give a chance to an HMG to suppress an a-moving blob, and any infantry that closes in to close range combat would negate the LMG advantage. If you want a long-range dominant weapon on an infantry squad, you should have to pay the specialization costs in addition to ammo costs.

Personally I would love it if LMG teams had to be deployed / packed up but not like the HMGs, just let them have a large delay (~3 seconds?) where the squad has to be stationary before the LMG (any LMG) can start firing. If the LMG has to change facing, the counter is reset. This would at least give a chance to an HMG to suppress an a-moving blob, and any infantry that closes in to close range combat would negate the LMG advantage. If you want a long-range dominant weapon on an infantry squad, you should have to pay the specialization costs in addition to ammo costs.

This would be a bad idea. This would allow close combat troops to simply bumrush LMG troops and win without taking significant damage because the LMG could not fire.

These guys become terminators at vet 3 with smoke, at snare and nades. They are cost effective and can beat every infantry unit without no issue, even vet 5 G-43 Fusis.

OKW can handle them somehow as they have Obers, ST..etc but what on earth ostheer supposed to do?? Later on this army gets backed up by M36(s) + arty (Callis, M7b1s) and forward retreat/healing/reinforcing point.

M1919s should be limited to 1/squad.

You... do know how much they cost right?

It's not like USF gets them for free or something.

I've hated the dominance of LMGs in this game for a very long time. Especially since they require the squad to be static, a-moving ends up being encouraged in large enough blobs, and it gets even worse when that a-move blob comes up against any HMG crew that has an RA penalty.

If 30 cals get changed, everything should be changed. Don't want to make LMGs useless, but they definitely are such a no brainer these days.

+1.

This would be a bad idea. This would allow close combat troops to simply bumrush LMG troops and win without taking significant damage because the LMG could not fire.

So you do want lmgs to be no-brainers, right? Screw all these PPsHs and BARs, why even bother when you have lmgs that are effective where smgs should have been

So you do want lmgs to be no-brainers, right? Screw all these PPsHs and BARs, why even bother when you have lmgs that are effective where smgs should have been

It would simply change the no-braining from LMGs to close combat weapons. If LMGs had a set up time you would pretty much auto-win every engagement against them with close combat troops.

Meet an LMG squad that is moving out in the open? You will be in close combat range before he gets a change to fire his LMG.
Meet an LMG squad standing still in cover? Throw a grenade, force them to move -> LMG is now useless while you close in.

It would simply change the no-braining from LMGs to close combat weapons. If LMGs had a set up time you would pretty much auto-win every engagement against them with close combat troops.

Meet an LMG squad that is moving out in the open? You will be in close combat range before he gets a change to fire his LMG.
Meet an LMG squad standing still in cover? Throw a grenade, force them to move -> LMG is now useless while you close in.

Not necessarily setup time. Just a cooldown after rotating and we're done, voila. By coming close and keeping moving you can micro your way to victory in the engagement.

We had a thread a while ago when Obers were introduced saying

'No unit, regardless how much it costs, should negate infantry completely' or something among those lines.

Applies here, limit browning to 1 per squad, we can all go home.

lets complain about usfs double lmgs when okw's whole infantry sections are all long range A move units.

Remove them. I personnally don't care about m1919s.. I use bars most of the time anyway, firing on the move and flanking> a-moving

USF players crutch on a-moving m1919s across the map, is pretty cringe worthy. But the design behind m1919s being an LMG Instead of the USF HMG is even more fail.

M1919 rifles are noworse than a vetted fusilier volk ober blob, or guard rifle blobs, or ostruppen spam. So why just highlight double m1919 as if it's the most cancerous thing this game has to offer.

But lets not act like Ostheer doesn't have snipers that straight up rape especially in a pair late game,command tank boosted inf and support weapons, Panzerwerfer, or anything late game to stop or bleed those Uber rifle blobs. That's just bs.

Right click moving blobs > A-moving blobs

This would be a bad idea. This would allow close combat troops to simply bumrush LMG troops and win without taking significant damage because the LMG could not fire.

Your arguments are completely valid, especially the "grenade-cover" one. But the LMG is supposed to be a long-range upgrade. It should be (in my opinion at least) a double-edged sword. The current weakness of LMGs (can't fire on the move) is not really influential considering very few squads rely on damage on the move in the long run. Maybe 3 seconds is overkill and could be tweaked, but surely there can be a way to make the the tradeoff of LMG being bulky and unmaneuverable in exchange for good long-range DPS.

Also, the rest of the squad's rifles do not magically go away once you pick up an LMG. Now, if you put 2 LMGs onto a squad... well, the term "crippling overspecialization" comes to mind.

I feel a weakness is needed because the long-range damage uproots a core game mechanic of CoH, so in return it should be vulnerable to being caught out of position, which fits with LMGs fluff-wise. Why shouldn't close combat troops profit from getting a drop on a long-range squad? As it stands, LMG troops will beat a charging close quarter squad every time (unless it's Shocks advancing through cover). Why is it acceptable to you that close combat troops have to lose this engagement? Why not the other way around? This at least makes it situational, just as, say, the Luchs vs AT Gun.

LMG troops are, in my mind, supposed to be used stationary, defensively. Or in an assault, if you get them into position and keep them there for a few seconds - is it too much to ask in return for long-range firepower? If you have other infantry squads to support, an LMG troop would never have to face anything with their pants down. That way, LMG squads would be a key part of your infantry doctrine, but blindly a-moving a blob would not be possible any more.

Of course all of this boils down to "drChengele feels game should play out this way".

These guys become terminators at vet 3 with smoke, at snare and nades. They are cost effective and can beat every infantry unit without no issue, even vet 5 G-43 Fusis.

OKW can handle them somehow as they have Obers, ST..etc but what on earth ostheer supposed to do?? Later on this army gets backed up by M36(s) + arty (Callis, M7b1s) and forward retreat/healing/reinforcing point.

M1919s should be limited to 1/squad.

Solution: Buy WFA, Buy Sturmtiger Commander, play OKW

well. seriously they are FINE.
Ostheer: get ostwind/panzerwerfer (when do they come out is another issue)
or straight up LMG42 Gren blob with a MG42 behind.

OKW: blob more obers fusiliers falls etc. KT/ST wipes shit as well.

One 1919 is 70 mun. If I dump 70x6=420 mun on just 3 double equipped 1919 Rifles, then I deserve to have such inf killing power.

Oh, ok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ExuAo1Kaus Tell jove that he is bad player and GiA is much better because he almost outplayed him because double brownings on rifles xDD

wtf are you watching? GiA lost the game in the end...

No shit, that's a 280 MP squad w/ 120 munitions worth of weapons vs. a 240 MP squad w/ 60 munitions worth of weapons.

140 munitions. Each m1919 cost 70 muni.

Can we just remove LMGs from the game entirely except for specialized units like Obersoldaten?

OR NERF LMGS IN A CREATIVE WAY LIKE make the LMG squad have to set up for like a second and go prone on the ground or something. Just make it harder to LMG spam. Or make the squads slower with LMG upgrade.

I like the idea to make lmg squads set up. 3 seconds is too much, but a shorter setup Tim will make lmgs into a defensive weapon instead of an a move weapon. Park them behind cover, let them set up, and they can defend very effectively. Amoving wI'll just result in the lmg getting flanked and defeated.

These changes should not change lmgs for elite infantry though (paras, guards, obers).