Hi all,
So, here goes:
Problem: The ISU and Elefant doctrines both possess their factions' heavy bomb strikes (IL2 Bomb strike/Stuka Dive Bomb), which completely hard-counter artillery. By my rhinking this is unfair, as poor mobility and the need to stay stationary is reqquired of both ISU and Elefant, making the fixed artillery piece a natural counter, but the heavy bomb strikes completely negate this. Particularly egregious when combined with spotter planes.
Suggestion: Remove either recon or bomb strike abilities from elefant/ISU doctrines.
[Ost/Sov] [All modes] [ISU/Elefant docs OHKO Fixed Arty]
21 Oct 2015, 18:13 PM
#1
Posts: 509
21 Oct 2015, 18:13 PM
#2
Posts: 509
Naturally, I am abstaining from voting, so please vote guys
21 Oct 2015, 18:59 PM
#3
Posts: 2561
Artillery doesn't even counter these units anyway. Even well timed barrages will only manage to do 200 or 400 damage at most, which isn't really dangerous to these high health units. So it's doesn't really matter.
21 Oct 2015, 19:03 PM
#4
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Artillery doesn't even counter these units anyway. Even well timed barrages will only manage to do 200 or 400 damage at most, which isn't really dangerous to these high health units. So it's doesn't really matter.
Exactly. It has been suggested in the past but only a handful of commanders have been change after release (Sturmtiger > PIV and Irregulars > AT partisans)
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
21 Oct 2015, 19:10 PM
#5
Posts: 670
That feel when Relic said ML-20 is a counter to Elefant before the release 
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
21 Oct 2015, 19:14 PM
#6
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently BannedI mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.
1337 h4X0R, dank memes
axis
21 Oct 2015, 19:26 PM
#7
Posts: 509
in a way, making them relocate is what is needed. Relocate them, and/or the inevitable wall of paks etc. Make the beast move, and its much more vulnerable to flanking. Which is why the option ought to be there IMO
21 Oct 2015, 19:28 PM
#8
Posts: 509
I mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.
Exactly. I'm not advocating a change to the heavy strikes at all. They can and should OHKO fixed arty. What I object to is doctrine combinations which include ISU/Ele AND strikes (and recon too, in Ostheer's case iirc)
21 Oct 2015, 20:00 PM
#9
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently BannedHow would you change it? Are you advocating that these abilities be separated into different doctrines?
1337 h4X0R, dank memes
axis
21 Oct 2015, 20:09 PM
#10
Posts: 509
Just that they should not be in the ISU/Ele doctrines. Give these docs something else.
Or at least not with recon in the mix. I mean, sneaking near enough my fixed arty to get LoS to call in a bomber; fine. Spending 80 muni extra and calling in bomber at first pass of the spotter? No thanks.
Or at least not with recon in the mix. I mean, sneaking near enough my fixed arty to get LoS to call in a bomber; fine. Spending 80 muni extra and calling in bomber at first pass of the spotter? No thanks.
21 Oct 2015, 21:12 PM
#11
Posts: 166
That feel when Relic said ML-20 is a counter to Elefant before the release
Did they really?
22 Oct 2015, 08:39 AM
#12
Posts: 670
Did they really?
I remember they did
they said something like 'Ml-20 is the perfect counter to the Elegant, because it's so slow'. They said 'Soviets are the faction of hard counters', this is why we had to deal with shitty binary structure of old soviet faction for 2 years 
(I could be mistaken, I wasn't paying attention to Coh2 at that time)
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
22 Oct 2015, 08:42 AM
#13
Posts: 17892 | Subs: 8
I mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.
You talk about bombing runs yes?
I don't think people have problem with them delivering one hit kills on arty, what is problematic here is the EASE to deliver the killing strike because of the reckon planes.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Oct 2015, 08:47 AM
#14
Posts: 2819
It's not a problem because arty does not counter these units.
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
22 Oct 2015, 08:57 AM
#15
Posts: 17892 | Subs: 8
It's not a problem because arty does not counter these units.
Well, it counters walls of support teams that protect it from infantry and tank assaults.
You aren't really assault focused once you go for ele or ISU, you mostly will camp on 2 VPs with some harrasement on 3rd.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Oct 2015, 09:30 AM
#16
Posts: 2819
Well, it counters walls of support teams that protect it from infantry and tank assaults.
You aren't really assault focused once you go for ele or ISU, you mostly will camp on 2 VPs with some harrasement on 3rd.
I really don't think the elephant of it's doctrines are a problem man. You barely see them ingame and when the unit appears, just go full ATgun, zooke's, ...
I don't see a problem with this commander.
You've got a point though.
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
22 Oct 2015, 09:37 AM
#17
Posts: 17892 | Subs: 8
I really don't think the elephant of it's doctrines are a problem man. You barely see them ingame and when the unit appears, just go full ATgun, zooke's, ...
I don't see a problem with this commander.
You've got a point though.
Actually, just recently while playing 2s I've faced Ele vs very campy players.
Arty and indirect fire was exactly what we needed, I've made a horrible mistake of thinking B4 will be useful instead of katy spam just because of reckon+stuka.
I didn't needed that B4 to counter ele, I needed it for entrenched MGs and PaKs and MG bunkers on top of all of that that prevented any non suicidal assault. I couldn't do it, because of reckon+stuka combo, it was a long, good and exhausting game, so muni wasn't an issue for anyone.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Oct 2015, 09:46 AM
#18
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
Thise change would affect Ostheer more because you see ML20, B4 more often than the LefH.
Also there are more OP commanders balance wise (Vanguard, Rifle Company) that would rather needs adjustments than Recon & Bomb combo.
Also there are more OP commanders balance wise (Vanguard, Rifle Company) that would rather needs adjustments than Recon & Bomb combo.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
22 Oct 2015, 10:36 AM
#19
Posts: 17892 | Subs: 8
Well, when you see LefH, it usually have a free reign unless you actually rush it.
B4/ML-20 is scrap metal 20 seconds after the barrage(ok, tad longer if you build it asap at 8cp).
Speaking of vanguard, it got heavy nerfs on preview with commandos and cros.
Rifle company the same with just vet1 now and flamers changed from AI weapon to almost anti garrison exclusive one, they still will be the way to go, but they aren't really IWINs they used to be.
I don't mind bombing runs, but the effort to pull them off on 600mp doctrinal piece should be more then two clicks you can do nothing about to prevent/react/respond to.
B4/ML-20 is scrap metal 20 seconds after the barrage(ok, tad longer if you build it asap at 8cp).
Speaking of vanguard, it got heavy nerfs on preview with commandos and cros.
Rifle company the same with just vet1 now and flamers changed from AI weapon to almost anti garrison exclusive one, they still will be the way to go, but they aren't really IWINs they used to be.
I don't mind bombing runs, but the effort to pull them off on 600mp doctrinal piece should be more then two clicks you can do nothing about to prevent/react/respond to.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Oct 2015, 11:10 AM
#20
Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1
as long as there exists something like hawker typhoons and croc in the same doc i wont comment in here
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