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russian armor

[OKW vs SOV] [1vs1] [SOV numerical advantage and doctorines]

22 Sep 2015, 10:33 AM
#1
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

Problem: The SOVs can hardcounter and wipe any OKW unit right from the start. The shock frontline is still broken and I'm not sure why it's not banned again during this tournament, Shocks eat up Falls, Sturmpios and obers. Kv8 is like the crocodile while costing a lot less and arriving much earlier. IS2 is also way too hard to take down and JPiv does not work on most 1vs1 maps. Con's mid/long range damage is too high for a 6 man unit. OKW is supposed to rely on a few 'elite' units to counter the masses of spammed inf/vehicles. But what elite unit?! Jagers which are basically a stylish looking version of ostruppen? Falls which die while just walking or looking at shocks? Volks which are equipped with waterguns? Or the puma which dies to smal stuff while being total garbage against inf and medium vehicles while costing more than a t34.


Solutions:
  • Accuracy: Make the elite unit more accurate and worth their cost. Such as falls, JLI, fussils. Obers are also too expensive and take a long time to vet up. A non-vet obers loses against penals.
  • Faster veterancy acheivment: The veterancy requirements are also too high and probably more suitable for hours long 4vs4 rolfstomps. What is the point of 5 levels of veterancy when they barely hit vet 3.
  • Remove the fuel penalty: Now that the game is moving towards symmetrical balance and SOV/USF got their lategame (cheap t34, %100 penetration buff for su76, m10 durability, cheaper CPT, increased pen for the m36, unkillable vet 3 RM/cons) significantly buffed, I think the fuel penalty is rather unnecessary and crippling and taking away the fun factor from gameplay.
  • Jagdtiger/KoenigsTiger:These guys are a tad expensive and the latter went under a massive armor nerf without any cost adjustment. Reduce the cost for both, the jagdtiger is not accessible even at 245 fuel.
  • Shock Frontline:About time you guys remove the most broken doctorine in game. It's amazing how noobs and pros only use this one as it grants cheap free wins. You know all the good stuff in one package. Imagine having an OKW doc which included a call in Konigstiger, the ostwind, HMG42 and falls and CloseThePocket arty.


In pictures:

"Effective in numbers"; and damn they are way too effective:

Playing OST, the SOV style!;
22 Sep 2015, 10:59 AM
#2
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

A big shitstorm will begin. Brace yourself because it will target you. You just asked for OKW buffs.
On topic, I don't necessarely agree. OKW should not be buffed just because some broken soviet units. What I would still do:
- increase falls survivability a little
- do something about volks - they are to weak in startgame.
- do something about that mg34, like increase cost and make it half-decent
- do something about OKW emplacements like AA, which is totally not worth it and shitty
- decrease KT fuel cost by just a bit

That's about all.

P.S. Puma cannot be saved, no matter how much you would work at it. So beat it with that.
22 Sep 2015, 11:07 AM
#3
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

http://coh2chart.com

Axis factions need some love according to 1vs1 & 2vs2 (only modes that matter for balance). I think the core problem is that allies mainline infantry is more versatile and stronger due upgrades and abilities. Wining all the 1vs1 engangments when fighting for capture points.

Grens need a better vet 1 ability and due cons buff even lmg grens have problems now dealing with vet 3 cons.

Volks are nothing more than a meatshield carrying a schreck, they could need a complete rework, making them more expensive and more versatile with weapon upgrades (remove the schreck though). German army in '44 had manpower shortage, trying to compensate that with automatic weapons. Makes no sense to have such a expendable mainline infantry squad.
22 Sep 2015, 11:18 AM
#4
avatar of GLBZ

Posts: 54

unkillable vet 3 RM/cons

what?
22 Sep 2015, 11:21 AM
#5
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2015, 11:18 AMGLBZ

what?
Change your steam mode into online and update the game
Wining all the 1vs1 engangments when fighting for capture points.



That's the core issue indeed.
22 Sep 2015, 11:23 AM
#6
avatar of Vinyl41

Posts: 97

after all those nerfs ( some deserved and some not ) okw is not the weakish faction ( mostly 1v1s ) unless you cheese isg or do the typical p2 rush ( current patch p2 can beat t70 - good to know )
while i agree that fjs need some love but so do jli, stock obers and pfusiliers, kt could use some stats propably ( armor )
soviet map control + kv8 is op as fuck to deal with
22 Sep 2015, 11:24 AM
#7
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2015, 11:18 AMGLBZ

what?


Conscript received accuracy change was from 23% to 40%.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2015, 23:49 PMCruzz

Numerical values are different, just think people should know that the change is a lot bigger than what they imply in the notes.
22 Sep 2015, 11:26 AM
#8
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

Inci nade > shocks.
22 Sep 2015, 11:31 AM
#9
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

^ hotfix will make it useless for the cost.
22 Sep 2015, 11:33 AM
#10
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

okw sucks os much...thats why players were afraid to play ok and ukf in tourney...first of all the jadtiger
remove that stupid stun mechanic/replace vet 5 with increased damage 480 from 320
And most of the okw units need a -40 % xp requirement to vet up like luchs,stuka,flak ht,obers,falls,kubel and list goes on and on
its quite funny how quickly allied units vet up despite the faction(okw) that needs it doesn't
King tiger
increase damage from 240 to 400
increased rate of fire(adjust vet 5 bonus to -50%cooldown)
Spearhead ability is 180 instead of 90(its utter uselees vet ability no one uses it)
obers
increase theri lmg and stg44 damage from 6 t0 8 (pre nerf values)
falls
lower thier recieved accuracy
20 % increase in dps
and adjust vet 5 to -50%cooldown (vet 5 bonus should be awesome beacsue they are hard to reach not shitty like jadtiget removes stun)
jaeager light infy
little more accuracy
sturmtiger
have a same reload system as avre or make the same mechanic for avre as sturm....currnetly AVRE>>>>>sturm
22 Sep 2015, 11:38 AM
#11
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

@ Doom

It will likely stop it over performing but unless you have tried it you can't say that for sure. I disagree with pretty much everything you have written but it's a lot of effort to write a proper reply on my phone.

Regarding the doctrine - I see streamers and players in OCF using many different doctrines.

What ladder position are you generally playing at and what factions do you have experience with?

@ mycalliope - Dat Bias
22 Sep 2015, 11:40 AM
#12
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

I encourage you to put the effort and wire a proper response. I welcome other opinions.


300-700 Also these viewpoints relate to 1vs1 and not any other modes. Have you tried playing any 1vs1 as okw.
22 Sep 2015, 11:47 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

^ hotfix will make it useless for the cost.

As long as you're throwing it as 6 man squads, it won't.
22 Sep 2015, 11:48 AM
#14
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I encourage you to put the effort and wire a proper response. I welcome other opinions.


300-700 Also these viewpoints relate to 1vs1 and not any other modes. Have you tried playing any 1vs1 as okw.


I will write a proper one later on when I am back at home. I have been playing some 1's recently and played OKW in OCF.

I would suggest if you can find it to take a look at the final game between HelpingHans and VindicareX from OCF. Was a pretty close game from high level players. Rogers casted it but there should be a replay in the tournament section.
22 Sep 2015, 12:02 PM
#15
avatar of A Cuddly Teddy Bear

Posts: 81

Permanently Banned


In pictures:

"Effective in numbers"; and damn they are way too effective:



You have 112 munitions here and infantry that don't require a muni upgrade to get their gewehr 43s and you have double shrekc squads.

You could have spend those munitions on mines, forcing him to extensively spend micro on mine sweaping or letting his t34s hit the mines. That in combination with a few cloaked raketten werfers and having your jaeger squads in pairs of two, should give him a hard time.
You also had the good side of the map, you can protect the center vp with ease if you destroy the church and can control the fuel and north vp fairly easy. In the meanwhile you can harrass his fuel point from at least 3 sides.

To add to this, you could have given each jeager group a shreck squad for support. Next to this these shreck squads could build you free cover, from which your jaegers can totally rek any advance from the conscript squads. If you have a raketten werfer covering your groups and important points on the map, you can dominate any t34 that comes around.

The fact that he got 4 t34s in that picture and had another 313 fuel in the bank, tells me you simply did something wrong, which you can't blame on the OKW faction, since you are the one in charge.

The only thing I like to be changed to OKW is the lackluster veterancy for the Sturmpioneers. They vet up to slow and get a stun grenade at vet 3, which comes way to late, should get that at vet 1 or 2.
22 Sep 2015, 12:05 PM
#16
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

^ This isn't a could've would've mentoring topic. Those pictures are captured via observer mode to give a better impression of what numerical advantage means.
22 Sep 2015, 12:06 PM
#17
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3




That's not him playing, Captain Hindsight

22 Sep 2015, 12:08 PM
#18
avatar of A Cuddly Teddy Bear

Posts: 81

Permanently Banned



That's not him playing, Captain Hindsight



So he starts a thread on why the Soviets have a numerical superiority advantage, but includes a random replay to emphasize why he is right.

That makes sense :foreveralone:

With that logic I can upload a replay where the OKW outspams the Soviets and claim the complete opposite.
22 Sep 2015, 12:09 PM
#19
avatar of A Cuddly Teddy Bear

Posts: 81

Permanently Banned
^ This isn't a could've would've mentoring topic. Those pictures are captured via observer mode to give a better impression of what numerical advantage means.


So for clarity, you purposefully picked an example that emphasizes your points.
22 Sep 2015, 12:10 PM
#20
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100



So for clarity, you purposefully picked an example that emphasizes your points.
Exactly.
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