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russian armor

Less pack, More Howitzer (buff the pack's barrage)

30 Apr 2015, 02:49 AM
#41
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300


There's a reason they were called tommy cookers. First hit usually lit them on fire burning the entire crew. The US didn't work around the clock to ge tthe pershing into production. The boys back home told everyone that the sherman was more than adequate and thats why they made 10's of thousands of them. Despite as early as 1943 shermans were lighting on fire and were outclassed by panzer4s. I'd consider the barebones t34/76 tanks with a life expectancy of a week a better tank than the sherman piece of shit mobile. Shit Eisenhower had to order that no more 75 mm shermans be sent to europe after the shit ton of losses after the battle of the bulge. Or else they would of kept at it. They worked against the dinky japanese tanks, but got shit on by the germans and needed aircraft support for them to engage enemy armor on a serious scale.

Shermans were not good tanks, they were not planned for future german tanks at all, the americans were really short sighted simply because they performed adequately vs upgunned panzer3s and panzer 4s. Just like russia, they picked really cheap easily expendable tanks because their economy could handle producing 10s of thousands of vehicles as well as finding near infinite crews to operate them relative to the germans. If they really cared about crew safety and such upon entering the war they would have taken a more panther like approach of armor, firepower, and mobility. After the war they wised up and were like "Oh shit maybe sending hundreds of crews to their deaths isn't such a good idea" Hence why everyone copied the idea of the panther and why Modern Main Battle Tanks are a thing.

Feel free to go and read up on some feedback from american tank crews of the time.

http://archives.library.illinois.edu/blog/poor-defense-sherman-tanks-ww2/

Hell even go read through the wikepedia article on the m4 sherman. Only the 76mms were more even vs stugs and panzer4s.



Wong The death trap thing was entirely a myth. The reason why they went up in flames was because

1. Early on crews were packing the tanks with ammo everywhere resulting in catastrophic cook offs when penetrations occurred once this was fixed the Sherman was no more prone to fire than any other tank. Also once wet ammo storage was introduced the Sherman was one of the least likely tanks to catch fire (10-20% with a crew fatality rate of roughly 18% which translates to one man out of the 5 person crew for a detah trap it seems to be pretty bad at killing its own crew)

2. When the Germans could they would continue to fire on knocked out shermans until they caught fire to ensure the vehicle was 100% destroyed and couldn't be recovered

http://www.amazon.com/Armored-Thunderbolt-U-S-Sherman-World/dp/0811704246/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8
http://knowledgeglue.com/dispelling-myths-surrounding-m4-sherman/


"Myth: Belton Cooper’s book “Death Traps” is a good book about the Sherman.
Fact: Belton Cooper was a mechanic during the war, and thus lacked a good overall perspective of the Sherman’s performance. His laments about Shermans being no good against Tigers and Panthers are questionable, as his unit did not encounter Tigers and Panthers when he said it did. Furthermore, a portion of his book is dedicated to a rant about a Yankee conspiracy when it came to naming the tank, despite the fact that “Sherman” was a British nickname. The American designation was “Medium Tank M4″. To be fair, the Sherman name did make it into official documentation in 1944, but the common soldiers never used it. (Partial credit: The_Chieftain)"


"Myth: Shermans were prone to fires due to the gasoline engines, and were nicknamed “Ronson” by their crews.
Fact: Shermans were not especially fire-prone (consider German tanks that also used gasoline engines, but avoid this reputation). Fires were caused by improper storage of ammunition, when it was literally stuffed everywhere inside the tank it could fit. The end of this practice drastically reduced the number of Sherman fires. The Ronson nickname is attributed to the slogan “lights every time”. The slogan was launched post-war, and thus could not influence the nickname."



http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/09/05/common-myths-about-wwii/



"Death Traps is an unusual book. It is written in the style of a memoir, but it also presents itself as a history of the 3rd Armored Division, the unit in which Cooper served as an ordnance Lieutenant. The main theme of the book is that M4 Sherman was, as the title implies, a “death trap” to the men that operated them. However, the book has several flaws. As a memoir, it is meandering and repetitive, far too often wandering away from the authors personal experiences into the realm of speculation. As a history it is lacking, containing no end notes, foot notes or bibliography. And finally, as an indictment of the M4 Sherman tank, the book is filled with so many factual errors and outright falsehoods, it cannot be taken seriously on this count either."


http://tankandafvnews.com/2015/01/29/debunking-deathtraps-part-1/



http://books.google.com.ph/books/about/Panther_Vs_Sherman.html?id=SWwRkr_6mzUC&redir_esc=y


"The data above is not complete but surely shatters the 5:1 nonsense. A British study concluded, during the Normandy campaign, that if the allies outnumbered the Germans 2.2 to 1 then victory was practically ensured. On the flip side, the Germans needed a 1.5 to 1 numerical superiority to ensure victory. In between these figures it came down to tactics. Again this data isn’t a complete representation but it debunks the 5:1 claim which has no evidence to support it."



Sorry but Shermans did just fine against Axis armor. Also your point about Big makes zero sense look at like this. By your words the Sherman is a bad tank due to its inability to effectively take down already rare Heavy Armor(said heavy armor that had a myraid of its own problems) in extreme rare niche engagements? (ergo long range engagements past 1 KM that rarely happened)


You also seem to think that war is always fought in a vacuum and tanks only fight only fight other tanks so basing a overall view on the sherman just based on its abilities to fight as mentioned above a few tanks in very rare instances, and nothing else is absurd and daft.


http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/08/combat-performance-of-75-cm-and-88-cm.html

"The data is not surprising at all. The majority of 88 mm hits are at 600-800 meters, exactly the range at which a Tiger would be engaging a T-34 according to the Tigerfibel. The mythical 2 km shots represent a negligible amount of the total. The 75 mm caliber favours closer engagements, at about 400-500 meters."


Oh and fun fact Shermans were still being used by the US after WWII in korea and continued to see service in other countries until the 1980s meanwhile only the french briefly used German Tanks after WWII, and raved about their poor performance. (http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/177929-french-panthers/) Also german tanks literally had ZERO influence on post war tank design except for the French prototype AMX-50 which never entered production.
(http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/327199-our-problem-child-a-teardown-of-pzkpfw-v-panther/)



Lastly your one source is based entirely on just one mere personal account and death traps which has already been thoroughly debunked as a historical source.
30 Apr 2015, 02:54 AM
#42
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 19:53 PMacosn



Well, it bears repeating. Relic gives everyone but the US a proper assault tank. Germans and Soviets get tanks that didn't see more than 10 or 20 examples built, but it's suddenly a problem if the US gets and M-26 Pershing? Or an M4A3E2? How about some artillery that isn't complete ass? The Americans were known for how much artillery they used, but you'd never know it in COH2. They get exactly one properly good OMA and it's an air strike.


I don't think you want assault guns because both the SU-76, StuG Ausf G both suck. The StuG E, and ISU are really the only exceptions to this rule.

I would include the Sturmtiger but I'm the only one who uses it so go figure.
30 Apr 2015, 03:06 AM
#43
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



I don't think you want assault guns because both the SU-76, StuG Ausf G both suck. The StuG E, and ISU are really the only exceptions to this rule.

I would include the Sturmtiger but I'm the only one who uses it so go figure.



Paul used in on Romeos stream yesterday and managed to wipe a few squads, weapon teams/AT guns and even a T-34/85 at the end(granted the Soviet player was a complete moron) but yeah........
30 Apr 2015, 03:08 AM
#44
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300

Lol good one acosn. Those silly germans shouldn't have stopped producing panzer 3s. Cause all you ever need are shitty fodder tanks to win a war. Oops excuse me I mean "adequate" and "good designed".


STuG III was the most produced German AFV of the War its also credited with having the highest enemy AFV kill rate, versatility as both a Tank destroyer and Assault Gun and very importantly COST EFFECTIVE


The Panzer III chassis was literally Nazi Germany's best tank chassis throughout the war its only flaw was its small size so the actual tank couldnt be up armored and upgunned to deal with newer threats.

Heres some food for thought If Heavy Tanks were such excellent game changing designs why did development into them end so shortly into the cold war?
30 Apr 2015, 03:17 AM
#45
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

Oh man what a shock, the guy with the nazi in his avatar/sig is biased towards axis
30 Apr 2015, 03:18 AM
#46
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2015, 03:17 AMArclyte
Oh man what a shock, the guy with the nazi in his avatar/sig is biased towards axis
Lol this games shit balance keeps this forum as lively as ever.
30 Apr 2015, 03:26 AM
#47
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

hmm i think we are discuss about pack howitzer here, why it goes to panther and sherman stuff again.

back to topic guys
30 Apr 2015, 03:38 AM
#48
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1




Paul used in on Romeos stream yesterday and managed to wipe a few squads, weapon teams/AT guns and even a T-34/85 at the end(granted the Soviet player was a complete moron) but yeah........


The Sturmtiger is one of the best units in the game but requires an insanely huge amount of micro, thus it is not often used.
30 Apr 2015, 03:45 AM
#49
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



The Sturmtiger is one of the best units in the game but requires an insanely huge amount of micro, thus it is not often used.



That and its ultra situational should not be a Stock Unit, but I digress I was just answering you to the fact you claimed no one uses it(which is largely true)
30 Apr 2015, 04:20 AM
#50
avatar of acosn

Posts: 108 | Subs: 1



I don't think you want assault guns because both the SU-76, StuG Ausf G both suck. The StuG E, and ISU are really the only exceptions to this rule.

I would include the Sturmtiger but I'm the only one who uses it so go figure.



Assault tank. EG, something that can take a hit. Something like an IS-2, or a Tiger.


The Americans didn't have an assault gun, though it'd probably be hysterical to make the Germans try to fight a T95.



Lol good one acosn. Those silly germans shouldn't have stopped producing panzer 3s. Cause all you ever need are shitty fodder tanks to win a war. Oops excuse me I mean "adequate" and "good designed".




The Panzer 3 was a superb design, and they did technically produce them until the end of the war when you consider that the StuG3 was based in it's chassis.



And to be accurate- the Panzer 3 was no longer adequate once the T-34 showed up. It doesn't bode well when what is rapidly becoming the most common enemy tank in the east can't be penetrated except within ~200 meters. M4 Shermans with 75mm guns could still deal with Tiger 1's from 300 meters on the flanks.



Do you not see the difference here?
30 Apr 2015, 04:37 AM
#51
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

And here I am, thinking I made a thread about the pack howitzer.
30 Apr 2015, 04:51 AM
#52
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1




That and its ultra situational should not be a Stock Unit, but I digress I was just answering you to the fact you claimed no one uses it(which is largely true)


It's not very situational, people blob, it's a blob counter. It can do every vehicle crit in the game including permanent ones. It one shots medium tanks.
30 Apr 2015, 23:17 PM
#53
avatar of Retaliation
Donator 11

Posts: 97

And here I am, thinking I made a thread about the pack howitzer.


Assuming it's not posted on a serious historical forum, any thread about WW2 Allies anything has a not insignificant chance of devolving into a "My panzer's better than your panzer!" fest. Naturally the same arguments are repeated ad nauseam. /rant

The thing that damns the pack howitzer is that it does less damage than the heavy mortar, costs more, and is more inaccurate when auto firing and barraging (which provides no accuracy bonus for no apparent reason). I loved to use them despite those issues because HEAT shells were the only reliable weapon to pen Axis heavies (300 pen :drool:!), but now you only get them when barraging apparently.

9 Jun 2015, 15:27 PM
#54
avatar of Loki

Posts: 96

I really like the Idea of giving the us a mortar. More props to that argument.

Lets say relic and the community decided to keep the pack and its price. Rather deciding to buff the thing proper. making it cost effective.

I believe this is the way.

give both the LT and the CAP a pack howi barrage. This ability increases the pack range. but you do have to build it and it has to be in range.



The barrages should be like 60 muni. Unsure about smoke indicator. If there is smoke it should be shot out of a rifle, like riflemen smoke. It would be cool if it didn't have smoke. Not HE rounds. Auto fire rounds. So small rounds, Big circle. Slow rate of fire. This could be the shit.

If it needs to be nerfed after creation, give it a smoke indicator. And the cap and the LT should throw the smoke instead of firing it out there rifle, effectively shorting the range ability.

You could also give the CAP and LT could have a shared cool down. That's weak but could be done.
9 Jun 2015, 15:48 PM
#55
avatar of Loki

Posts: 96

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 05:32 AMacosn



Someone might be left with the impression that Relic is run by wehraboos when the Germans get every toy in the attic while the US is found wanting and can't even get a Pershing. It's also a convenient German slant when the game doesn't register side armor. Can't have Germans worrying about the fact that from the sides and rear a Panther is no better at protecting it's crew than an M4 Sherman.


There were more Pershings that were deployed in Europe than there were Sturmtigers built. That along with KV-8's. Every German player gets Panther G's- that's the only model resembling something "good"- while the US has to spend actual cash or get lucky if they want the E8. Not much better with the Soviets and the T-34-85. Shit, 2 of the core Ostheer tanks- the Sturmpanzer 4 and the Ostwind- saw incredibly short production cycles, but apparently its a problem for the US to get even an M4A3E2? How about an AT gun worth a shit? Bazookas?



Its not that US players want the calliope, they want something that doesn't roundly suck.




+1. This guy should post more. He's got some good hammering truth. Makes you think what they really had in mind when thy built the army.
9 Jun 2015, 16:23 PM
#56
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

I agree 100% with the OP. The Packhowi should be a viable and strong Barrage weapon. Its not. Its a direct fire weapon that imho isnt worth the Micro to keep it alive. And there is a gap for the USF in taking out or punishing defensive lines.
9 Jun 2015, 18:05 PM
#57
avatar of SuperSonicFan

Posts: 14

I think the pak is pretty good in terms of offensive capabilities. The only problem is keeping the damn thing alive. I think if they simply gave it a shield like the ISG (the crew seriously dies to the slightest breeze) and make it survivable with 2 men instead of 3 it would be fine. Also maybe lower the reinforce cost a little, but I think in terms of firepower it's fine, especially since it can suppress when it hits squads
9 Jun 2015, 18:21 PM
#58
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2015, 03:17 AMArclyte
Oh man what a shock, the guy with the nazi in his avatar/sig is biased towards axis

9 Jun 2015, 23:11 PM
#59
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

I think the pak is pretty good in terms of offensive capabilities. The only problem is keeping the damn thing alive. I think if they simply gave it a shield like the ISG (the crew seriously dies to the slightest breeze) and make it survivable with 2 men instead of 3 it would be fine. Also maybe lower the reinforce cost a little, but I think in terms of firepower it's fine, especially since it can suppress when it hits squads


Ask yourself this. "Did it do better then two Ostheer Mortars when I used it?" or "Was it better then a 120MM Mortar when I used it?"

Because this is what it costs. If its balanced then the other two must be over performing and need a nerf. If the other two options are fine clearly the PackHowi needs a buff.
10 Jun 2015, 17:10 PM
#60
avatar of SuperSonicFan

Posts: 14



Ask yourself this. "Did it do better then two Ostheer Mortars when I used it?" or "Was it better then a 120MM Mortar when I used it?"

Because this is what it costs. If its balanced then the other two must be over performing and need a nerf. If the other two options are fine clearly the PackHowi needs a buff.


Hmm, I guess so. Lately I've just really fallen in love with the thing and the suppression abilities it has. I just wish it was easier to keep alive, as once it reaches vet 2 with the HEAT rounds it is a BEAST. If anything in relation to the other mortars, maybe a nerf to Wehr RoF?

I would say the Pak isn't like the mortar where it's a safe thing to get every game, but if you see even the slightest blobbing tendencies it is perfect. 1 shot in the blob and they get suppressed. Seriously needs a shield and 2 man crew though
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