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What I don't like in Soviets

aaa
22 Apr 2015, 03:51 AM
#82
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486


us and sovs have strong early games and access to either fast medium armor or callins.

What is the strong sov early game if they often play with only 4 cons and 2 engies for like 15-20 minutes? Not even getting a single building for some reason.

Seeing this and more of this kind I think its not strong sovs early gameplay, it looks more of strong soviet players like Jesulin and Paul. Capable of playing with 1 fighting unit type vs 4 unit types.

From the start (or with 1CM) OKW has acces to 4 fighting units units plus mg callin from more than one commander. They are quite scaleable into mid and even late game, exept kubel.

So it looks like for those soviet players cons and engies are enough to play. And for OKW players sturms, volks, kubel, raketen, and mg are not enough. And they need flak and possibly other tech.




it just means that OKW now has many tough choices to make in the early-mid game, but have good compensation in the form of cheap, multiroll tiers, vet 5, and powerful late game units.
They feel a lot more like the back foot faction they are meant to be.


From the side (dont have OKW) it looks like its a tough choice of fat cats. Why they are back foot fraction if they open with 5 unit types vs 2? 5 units including 2 anti tank units\abilities and strong anti infantry at all range.
22 Apr 2015, 04:37 AM
#84
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2015, 03:51 AMaaa

What is the strong sov early game if they often play with only 4 cons and 2 engies for like 15-20 minutes? Not even getting a single building for some reason.

Seeing this and more of this kind I think its not strong sovs early gameplay, it looks more of strong soviet players like Jesulin and Paul. Capable of playing with 1 fighting unit type vs 4 unit types.

From the start (or with 1CM) OKW has acces to 4 fighting units units plus mg callin from more than one commander. They are quite scaleable into mid and even late game, exept kubel.

So it looks like for those soviet players cons and engies are enough to play. And for OKW players sturms, volks, kubel, raketen, and mg are not enough. And they need flak and possibly other tech.





From the side (dont have OKW) it looks like its a tough choice of fat cats. Why they are back foot fraction if they open with 5 unit types vs 2? 5 units including 2 anti tank units\abilities and strong anti infantry at all range.


Soviets have plenty of choices early game. Conscripts, combat engineers, maxims, mortar, sniper,penals. All of these are units that can be your first unit. Anyways, I don't see anyone complaining about OKW's lack of options, OKW has a standard opening in terms of unit selection.

Also, your question about "what is the strong soviet early game if they often play with only 4 cons and 2 engies" doesn't make sense to me. Are you stating that soviets have a weak early game because they decide to only use two units? in which case I say: build different units. They have plenty of choices, use them if you don't like cons/ combat engineers.

You can't just look at amount of units available early and say that more is better, because otherwise USF is worst early game faction, and that simply is the opposite of fact.

Your arguments seem to hinge on the supposition that cons/ engies are the only choice early game, which is wrong, and the supposition that 4 con opening is weak, which is definitely wrong. Why do you think high skill players almost exclusively use the 4 con opening if it is so bad?

I would advise you to play all the factions, so that you can have a more firm grasping of their power/weaknesses, instead of only experience fighting their units.
22 Apr 2015, 04:56 AM
#85
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

i go on the forums and read posts like this low blow dude... invised posts pertaining to #79.
aaa
23 Apr 2015, 04:15 AM
#86
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486


OKW feel a lot more like the back foot faction they are meant to be.

not sure what back foot means. OKW didnt have overall disadvantage at any stage of the game.
They are at minimum equal in the opening. They equal only cuz conscripts ability
1. to run
2. build sandbags
Without that OKW would win right from the start.

They get advantage right after T3. And after that it just snowballs.
KT is the same as cheating, if you have commander without IS2. And i rarely use this commander. SU is in general tied down to commnaders, simply cant play without them. OKW can play without any commnader easily.
You get a commander to get a chance to survive. OKW get commander just like an addition to already strong units

I just lost to a person who absolutely coudnt control his units. Losing all early batttles, lost like 75% of the map.
And after that I found that vs OKW ability to win engagements is absolutely interely irrelevant. If he loses infantry vs infantry he is gonna sit around his shooting building with double mortar to get a deathball and A click. And win with most silly blob possible.
In short I just say that OKW is OP.
aaa
23 Apr 2015, 04:35 AM
#87
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486


Soviets have plenty of choices early game. Conscripts, combat engineers, maxims, mortar, sniper,penals. All of these are units that can be your first unit. Anyways, I don't see anyone complaining about OKW's lack of options, OKW has a standard opening in terms of unit selection.
.


1. CE. There is no single OKW unit that CE can fight with. Esp in the opening.
2. Penals is a joke. Overall cons are cheaper and way better. They only good at walking around the maps bulying lonely squads, they cant run from mg from double squad. No anti vehicle capabilities, overall they are just bad
23 Apr 2015, 05:34 AM
#88
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2015, 04:35 AMaaa







You have no idea of the game, play more before typing more irrational argument.
What I read above even beyond Allies version of Vetlolcake.
23 Apr 2015, 09:29 AM
#89
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

I don't think that T-34/85 should be a call-in unit, but rather come through regular progression with a tech cost similar to the Panther.
23 Apr 2015, 12:25 PM
#90
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

I don't think that T-34/85 should be a call-in unit, but rather come through regular progression with a tech cost similar to the Panther.


Yeah, best solution is T-34/76 upgun, maybe unlock after T3 and T4 built.
23 Apr 2015, 14:22 PM
#91
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2015, 12:25 PMPorygon


Yeah, best solution is T-34/76 upgun, maybe unlock after T3 and T4 built.


T3 and T4 are combined at 240 fuel, Panther comes in at far less than that.

If you build every tier for Ostheer, you get the following costs:

10 + 15 + 25 + 30 = 80

45 + 55 + 60 = 150

That adds up to 230 fuel, for teching the entire faction. (Don't forget the 20 starting fuel) Assuming your upgun idea too would cost fuel, I think you see why this needs be thought more thoroughly.
23 Apr 2015, 19:15 PM
#92
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

Reduce the cost of T4 if you've already built T3. Same for T1/T2.

Being hardlocked into a tier like Soviets are is annoying and too restrictive
26 Apr 2015, 01:14 AM
#93
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

I don't think that T-34/85 should be a call-in unit, but rather come through regular progression with a tech cost similar to the Panther.
26 Apr 2015, 08:51 AM
#94
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

If I am real honest I would say that no other faction by far is as strong as soviets atm.
They squad wipe on a regular base with one or two shots, while their one units most like survive every battley because they have 6 men, Their call in tanks are strong as hell and even more with mark target that let's two T34/85 take down a panther in 3-4 shots.

What I REALLY dislike in soviets is that as a German player the only thing you do is react.
You can't start own offensives if you're not absolutely dominating the game. You always have to be defensive because one lost unit as OKW/Ost will break your neck, especially if this unit is a tank.

Soviets might say 'well, it's a lost tank, whatever' and build a new one but especially as OKW you don't have the ressources because if you're lucky you can hold about 50% of the map or less.

When playing vs USF I know they won't drive in the ultimate destroyers and I can stay in an even game even after 25 mins. Against soviets this is different. When the T34/85 arrive and he didn't play like a jackass the whole game, it's usually a win for the enemy.

Playing against soviets is absolutely no fun because they don't get punished as hard for bad gameplay like other factions. I prefer playing against USF because I know the better player will win this game. The soviets can always turn the table with their call ins. You don't see much other tanks than T34/85 or IS-2 these days because they are so good. A T34/76 or a SU-85 is simply a waste of ressources and this has to change.
26 Apr 2015, 08:58 AM
#95
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

If I am real honest I would say that no other faction by far is as strong as soviets atm.
They squad wipe on a regular base with one or two shots, while their one units most like survive every battley because they have 6 men, Their call in tanks are strong as hell and even more with mark target that let's two T34/85 take down a panther in 3-4 shots.

What I REALLY dislike in soviets is that as a German player the only thing you do is react.
You can't start own offensives if you're not absolutely dominating the game. You always have to be defensive because one lost unit as OKW/Ost will break your neck, especially if this unit is a tank.

Soviets might say 'well, it's a lost tank, whatever' and build a new one but especially as OKW you don't have the ressources because if you're lucky you can hold about 50% of the map or less.

When playing vs USF I know they won't drive in the ultimate destroyers and I can stay in an even game even after 25 mins. Against soviets this is different. When the T34/85 arrive and he didn't play like a jackass the whole game, it's usually a win for the enemy.


>People who say that anything allied is the late game terrifying powerhouse

Ohhohoho. Hooooo. Oh lawdy.

If only axis had access to smoke, blitz, extremely efficient handheld AT, AT guns with a huge RoF, 5 levels of vet for extra scaling over time and the single best ability in the entire game bar none.

That ability being target weak point.

Point is, Soviets don't have a magical 'get me a huge resource advantage' button. They just have a late game, much unlike USF really do.
26 Apr 2015, 09:54 AM
#96
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1042

My chief complaint of the Soviets is that, barring about 2-3 things, everything in the stock faction is markedly inferior to its OH counterpart.
Granted, Doctrines make up for that more than enough, but the fact remains, why if I want to use iconic units like the T-34 or SU-76?

At this rate, why bother having a faction at all and just have a doctrine?
26 Apr 2015, 10:22 AM
#97
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

My chief complaint of the Soviets is that, barring about 2-3 things, everything in the stock faction is markedly inferior to its OH counterpart.
Granted, Doctrines make up for that more than enough, but the fact remains, why if I want to use iconic units like the T-34 or SU-76?

At this rate, why bother having a faction at all and just have a doctrine?


Sad but true.

Cons < Grens
Sov Sniper < Ost Sniper
Maxim < Mg42
ZiS < PaK
Su-76 < StuG
M3A1 < 222
T-34 < PzIV
KV-8 < Ostwind/Brummbarr

But it's okay, right, because Katty < Pwerfer, that makes it all fine.

I'd say the mortars are about the same, and there's not much else you can compare quite so directly as equivalents.
26 Apr 2015, 11:16 AM
#98
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

My chief complaint of the Soviets is that, barring about 2-3 things, everything in the stock faction is markedly inferior to its OH counterpart.
Granted, Doctrines make up for that more than enough, but the fact remains, why if I want to use iconic units like the T-34 or SU-76?

At this rate, why bother having a faction at all and just have a doctrine?

Individual unit comparisons are rarely meaningful. OH and Soviets work fundamentally different and their units synergise fundamentally different. I get why people complain ie. about the call-in meta, but the P IV has the exact same problem as the T-34 for example. You seen a StuG recently in a serious game? With the nerfs to OKW, Soviets are undoubtedly again the strongest faction in 1s.
26 Apr 2015, 11:22 AM
#99
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740



Just for your last post:


Cons < Grens
Sov Sniper < Ost Sniper
Maxim < Mg42
ZiS < PaK
Su-76 < StuG
M3A1 < 222
T-34 < PzIV
KV-8 < Ostwind/Brummbarr


In early game where cons really matter, they are about equal to grens. At close distance, cons will usually win most of the time and with 2 cons squads you can easily get close because it's 12 models against 4 (not looking at molotovs at all).

Ost sniper became pretty good, but Soviets are still 2 guys/girls. If the Ost sniper dies you lost 360MP. If a sov sniper dies you usually can retreat easily.

The maxim builds up much faster, has 6 men and is way better in buildings.

ZiS has barrage. Yes, it lacks target weak point but otherwise it's mostly as good as a PaK.

Nobody should ever build a Su-76 right now.

The M3 comes way earlier and can carry a flamethrower. This is very hard to counter especially as OKW.

A P4 is more expensive than a T34/76. The T34/85 itself is much better than a P4 while costing about the same and doesn't even require teching.

KV-8 has a much better armour than an Ostwind and deals crits 24/7.



So you see what I did?
I don't care if what I wrote is 100% true but at least I gave some reasons why I don't think you're right.
You are simply writing things without any reasons at all.
26 Apr 2015, 11:35 AM
#100
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

If I am real honest I would say that no other faction by far is as strong as soviets atm.
They squad wipe on a regular base with one or two shots, while their one units most like survive every battley because they have 6 men, Their call in tanks are strong as hell and even more with mark target that let's two T34/85 take down a panther in 3-4 shots.

What I REALLY dislike in soviets is that as a German player the only thing you do is react.
You can't start own offensives if you're not absolutely dominating the game. You always have to be defensive because one lost unit as OKW/Ost will break your neck, especially if this unit is a tank.

Soviets might say 'well, it's a lost tank, whatever' and build a new one but especially as OKW you don't have the ressources because if you're lucky you can hold about 50% of the map or less.

When playing vs USF I know they won't drive in the ultimate destroyers and I can stay in an even game even after 25 mins. Against soviets this is different. When the T34/85 arrive and he didn't play like a jackass the whole game, it's usually a win for the enemy.

Playing against soviets is absolutely no fun because they don't get punished as hard for bad gameplay like other factions. I prefer playing against USF because I know the better player will win this game. The soviets can always turn the table with their call ins. You don't see much other tanks than T34/85 or IS-2 these days because they are so good. A T34/76 or a SU-85 is simply a waste of ressources and this has to change.
+ 1, well worth a read.

And the Allied forum clown trying to tear it apart again.

Russians currently have no disadvantage. Allied trolls have flamed so long that Germans don´t even have better tanks now. As someone has already stated previously: Russian infantry masses, better artillery, best mines and explosives in the game with lots of ammunition and finally better tanks, has broken the game.

Soviets easily cap the map and break any German resistance with artillery. By the time German tanks hit the field, call in meta has taken over and wipes the floor with Panzer IVs and Panthers.
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