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About the B-4

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11 Nov 2014, 17:52 PM
#101
avatar of Chernov

Posts: 70

There seems to be a very important aspect that most of us here are forgetting. Coh2 has commanders not just for fun, but for reacting to your opponents choices. A b4 can be countered by offmap. "But than I dont have a tiger!!!" Well, your opponent has no heavy either, so enjoy this non-heavy game. Oh btw you have an elephant.
A b4 is strong, agreed, but it might be thé counter against all the heaviest armor in the game.

Let's say we nerf the poor thing's damage, instead of really hurting a KT or JT, it's just going to do a decent amount of damage, absolutely not really dangerous. That doesnt make sense, because the soviets need to counter the more heavy armor with something. Also, forget about heavy tanks, you only have the Kv-1, which is 0 against axis armor.
Su85 ? Please.

If you are going to be aggressive and put your forward bases as okw far ahead? Well they might get destroyed, but that's a part of the game.
Going to get your tanks repaired at the repairstation? Well captain obvious, expect a b4 strike. Hear the 'boom'? Get your tanks moving.

Cant counter it? You didnt go for offmap? Well thats on you.
Sneak in a stuka and kill the crew. Too much effort? Looks like it.

I completely agree about some lazy attitudes here. It requires absolutely nothing to kill that thing. Except a tiny bit of brains.


+1000
11 Nov 2014, 18:04 PM
#102
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

B4 is the ONLY reason why anyone picks this doctrine and you guys want to nerf it? I think the Soviets are already piling up a number of commanders which are under performing since the launch of WFA.
11 Nov 2014, 18:09 PM
#103
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

B4 is the ONLY reason why anyone picks this doctrine and you guys want to nerf it? I think the Soviets are already piling up a number of commanders which are under performing since the launch of WFA.


Of course!

Its useful and not axis. These two can't go together, ever.
11 Nov 2014, 18:10 PM
#104
avatar of gman1211

Posts: 132

This is the biggest axis whine thread I have ever seen in my life. The b4 is not even remotely over powered. You people need to try using it a few times before passing judgement.
11 Nov 2014, 18:19 PM
#105
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2


Lets be clear here. Im talking about 1v1 and from ostheer point of view. Ofc its easier to counter b4 in higher modes cause you get more variety/abilities from different teammates. Tell me what does ostheer player really have to counter such unit? Or do i always have to go for some shitty commanders with stuka dive bomb?



No, im just saying its hard to counter b4 as ostheer.



Funny that before the patch there were cry threads about how axis are op and now that its vice versa its not about allies op but about axis laziness :facepalm:


God... Since when Spearhead doctrine is shitty? Hey, it has rejon, off map, awesome mortar and Tiger if you dont know !
11 Nov 2014, 18:23 PM
#106
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

B4 is fine... u get lucky or u don't. it can make u lose if someone kills it so why nerf this when it can make u lose if it dies
11 Nov 2014, 18:42 PM
#107
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

The proposed changes have all been perfectly reasonable so far. Is changing around its vet bonuses really so bad? It will still be very useful in its role.

If you disagree, I'd like to hear some evidence as to why. Remember that oppositional units being overpowered is not a valid reason for your own units to be overpowered. This line of thinking destroys the meta.
11 Nov 2014, 19:03 PM
#108
avatar of m00nch1ld
Donator 11

Posts: 641 | Subs: 1



God... Since when Spearhead doctrine is shitty? Hey, it has rejon, off map, awesome mortar and Tiger if you dont know !

God... Since when bombing strike counters b4?!
11 Nov 2014, 19:05 PM
#109
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 17:12 PMpugzii


No, but then your post should have been regarding the topic of black-white counters if you agree, rather than against the B-4 as a single unit.. you've basically just proven your bias towards axis by wanting a nerf to the only counter to certain units.


So what's it the only counter for?

It's your own restricted cognition that someone needs to be pro allies or axis. I don't need to discuss Jagdtiger, Obersoldaten, Stuka, ISU 152 and whatever else again to bring across that the B-4 needs to be looked at too.

I demand that the B-4s veterancy and it's abilites are brought in line with the rest of the game.
11 Nov 2014, 19:05 PM
#110
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

I've seen some people in this thread lying straight up to our face when they say that the B4 one shots super heavy tanks. A vet 3 B4 DOES NOT one shot a Jagdtiger OR a King Tiger. It sure as hell one shots everything else in the game at vet 3 but NOT a Jagdtiger or a King Tiger.




640 damage * 1,5(vet bonus) * 1,35 (mark vehicle) = 1296 damage



Altough the Jagdtiger got a tiny bit of damage before the b4 hits, it doesn't really matter.
Even cruzz patched that vet 3 ability out, dunno why people defend it so much.
I'm not a friend of click to win abilities in any competitive game.
11 Nov 2014, 19:29 PM
#111
avatar of Snipester
Patrion 39

Posts: 102

Vet 1 is so easy for B-4 to obtain, just force a retreat on an OKW player and barrage his medic truck, even if it doesn't score a direct hit the AoE is stupidly big you're bound to kill a couple models or a squad. Then once you get Precision Strike, just use it on a stationary tank and bam, Vet 3.

You shouldn't be forced to pick a commander to counter a single unit, like going Elefant or Jagdtiger just to counter the ISU. Saying "pick a Stuka commander or you're screwed" is an extremely dull way to play the game.

As a general rule of thumb, the other team being forced to pick a doctrine just to counter a single unit is extremely indicative that it is overperforming. So, Jagd, ISU and B-4.

11 Nov 2014, 19:33 PM
#112
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292



640 damage * 1,5(vet bonus) * 1,35 (mark vehicle) = 1296 damage



Altough the Jagdtiger got a tiny bit of damage before the b4 hits, it doesn't really matter.
Even cruzz patched that vet 3 ability out, dunno why people defend it so much.
I'm not a friend of click to win abilities in any competitive game.


You are right about the one shotting in combination with mark vehicle since JT and KT have 1280 hitpoints. But it's damn close.

The thing is that it requires a team mate to use mark vehicle. What if your team mate is playing as USF? What if you play 1v1? What if your B4 haven't reached vet 3 yet? What if your team mate picks a commander without mark vehicle? What if your opponent is not stupid enough to stand still with his marked vehicle? There are many "what if's" to make it work every time.

The B4 can be an absolute necessity in some games where a properly supported Jagdtiger and/or King Tiger is nothing but unflankable and you'll almost never win a head on assault on a KT/JT that's properly microed and supported.

As a general rule of thumb, the other team being forced to pick a doctrine just to counter a single unit is extremely indicative that it is overperforming. So, Jagd, ISU and B-4.



You pick ISU to counter the Axis heavy tanks and elite infantry.

You pick the Jagdtiger to counter the ISU.

You pick the B4 to counter the Jagdtiger.

You pick the Stuka Bombing Strike to kill the B4.

You pick... What exactly? To counter the Stuka Bombing Strike.

This shit starts and ends with Axis having a super strong late game and especially USF is struggling really hard against it. And don't tell me I'm biased, I play OKW more than anything else.
11 Nov 2014, 19:46 PM
#113
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

This shit starts and ends with Axis having a super strong late game and especially USF is struggling really hard against it.


jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 18:42 PMRomeo
Remember that oppositional units being overpowered is not a valid reason for your own units to be overpowered. This line of thinking destroys the meta.


11 Nov 2014, 19:53 PM
#114
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 18:42 PMRomeo
The proposed changes have all been perfectly reasonable so far. Is changing around its vet bonuses really so bad? It will still be very useful in its role.

If you disagree, I'd like to hear some evidence as to why. Remember that oppositional units being overpowered is not a valid reason for your own units to be overpowered. This line of thinking destroys the meta.


You really only get the B4 because of how strong it gets at vet 3. Considering how expensive it is to "spam" recon + precision strike you really want it to hurt if it hits. A precision strike, on contrary to what some people in this thread tells you, doesn't always hit anything because guess what? The opponent is moving his units because he knows there's a B4 on the field.

I said on the first page that I'm fine with a nerf to the B4. It will just make this commander one of the many useless ones in the Soviet arsenal. The thing is that it is stupid to solo nerf this unit without changing anything on the Axis counterpart. If this unit is nerfed then something has to be done to the JT/KT at the same time.
11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PM
#115
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

You really only get the B4 because of how strong it gets at vet 3.
Even without the bonus it does excellent damage. It can inflict devastating losses on an opponent's infantry regardless.

Considering how expensive it is to "spam" recon + precision strike you really want it to hurt if it hits.
A cost reduction in addition to a nerf might be justified.

A precision strike, on contrary to what some people in this thread tells you, doesn't always hit anything because guess what? The opponent is moving his units because he knows there's a B4 on the field.
This comes down to player judgment, timing and skill. If a precision strike misses it's essentially because the player using it made a mistake. It could probably be a little more responsive though.

I said on the first page that I'm fine with a nerf to the B4. It will just make this commander one of the many useless ones in the Soviet arsenal.
Not being able to 1-shot super heavies doesn't make it useless. It will be viable, but not overpowered. This diversifies the meta which is a good thing. If soviet core units are not strong enough to win using this commander, that's a complaint with soviet core units that should be discussed independently of the B4.

The thing is that it is stupid to solo nerf this unit without changing anything on the Axis counterpart. If this unit is nerfed then something has to be done to the JT/KT at the same time.

This should go without saying. Again, if opposing units are too powerful then changes to them should be discussed independently of the B4.
11 Nov 2014, 20:25 PM
#116
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7



You really only get the B4 because of how strong it gets at vet 3. Considering how expensive it is to "spam" recon + precision strike you really want it to hurt if it hits. A precision strike, on contrary to what some people in this thread tells you, doesn't always hit anything because guess what? The opponent is moving his units because he knows there's a B4 on the field.

I said on the first page that I'm fine with a nerf to the B4. It will just make this commander one of the many useless ones in the Soviet arsenal. The thing is that it is stupid to solo nerf this unit without changing anything on the Axis counterpart. If this unit is nerfed then something has to be done to the JT/KT at the same time.


its not always the best idea to use precision strike on advancing infantry, for reasons you mentioned. personally i find it much more useful in taking out support weapons since a direct hit is always a guaranteed kill and its really unlikely the enemy player will move them. and if youre firing at mid range, the scatter on the b4 isnt all that bad, its pretty good actually.


as i've mentioned before, recon alerts the enemy that youre looking for a target to shoot, so theyll be annoying and try to move units around so theyre harder to hit. its a better idea to just use the vision you already have to pick off targets.
11 Nov 2014, 20:29 PM
#117
avatar of Neffarion

Posts: 461 | Subs: 1

Here u can see the problem of B4
OKW have no chance since trucks get obliterated and the cooldown is very low
http://www.coh2.org/replay/26465/b4-madness
11 Nov 2014, 20:49 PM
#118
avatar of lel69fgt

Posts: 41

Permanently Banned
I am totally fine with nerfing B-4. But as it's the only counter to OP JT/KT I want these 2 nerfed too. And OPersoldaten. And kubel. And stuka... och and okw artillery barrage
11 Nov 2014, 20:51 PM
#119
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

There seems to be a very important aspect that most of us here are forgetting. Coh2 has commanders not just for fun, but for reacting to your opponents choices. A b4 can be countered by offmap. "But than I dont have a tiger!!!" Well, your opponent has no heavy either, so enjoy this non-heavy game. Oh btw you have an elephant.
A b4 is strong, agreed, but it might be thé counter against all the heaviest armor in the game.

Let's say we nerf the poor thing's damage, instead of really hurting a KT or JT, it's just going to do a decent amount of damage, absolutely not really dangerous. That doesnt make sense, because the soviets need to counter the more heavy armor with something. Also, forget about heavy tanks, you only have the Kv-1, which is 0 against axis armor.
Su85 ? Please.

If you are going to be aggressive and put your forward bases as okw far ahead? Well they might get destroyed, but that's a part of the game.
Going to get your tanks repaired at the repairstation? Well captain obvious, expect a b4 strike. Hear the 'boom'? Get your tanks moving.

Cant counter it? You didnt go for offmap? Well thats on you.
Sneak in a stuka and kill the crew. Too much effort? Looks like it.

I completely agree about some lazy attitudes here. It requires absolutely nothing to kill that thing. Except a tiny bit of brains.


Good post Kreatir and i wholeheartedly agree, although i disagree that you NEED the right commander to counter a particular unit (it falls into the trap of using ISU to counter said unit, using Jagdtiger to counter ISU, etc.) Axis have solid core armies. There are many ways to negate the effectiveness of the B4 or how to counter it.

There are quite a number of tactics you can use to defeat the B4 user. You can sneak in a light vehicle to decrew or destroy it, like the 222, Luchs, Puma, Panzer4. Moving in a Stuka, or Panzerwerfer does the job too. It is also helpful to be less predictable as well. If you camp a certain sector for an extended period of time, try moving your units around and shuffling them. Big stationary blobs are juicy targets for the B4.

TO all those complaining that it destroys trucks and what not: There should be a risk to moving your truck up. No one is forcing you to set up forward repair bases or medic bases. Its purely optional
11 Nov 2014, 20:58 PM
#120
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PMRomeo
Even without the bonus it does excellent damage. It can inflict devastating losses on an opponent's infantry regardless.


Indeed. But you get it because it's diversified, your main target is, again, Axis (especially OKW's) super heavy tanks. With a nerf you are better off with a Katyusha and ISU to counter infantry and tanks at the same time.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PMRomeo
A cost reduction in addition to a nerf might be justified.


Sure, but it will be really difficult to balance (nerf) this unit without making it and the rest of the commander utterly useless. If that's the case then a cost reduction is all for nothing.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PMRomeo
This comes down to player judgment, timing and skill. If a precision strike misses it's essentially because the player using it made a mistake. It could probably be a little more responsive though.


Made a mistake? Believe me, I have used the B4 so much that I know that even a sneaky precision strike will miss a lot simply because you can't count on your opponent to stand still. It is impossible for you to estimate whether he will randomly move his units or not. It very much comes down to luck if you play against experienced Axis players.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PMRomeo
Not being able to 1-shot super heavies doesn't make it useless. It will be viable, but not overpowered. This diversifies the meta which is a good thing. If soviet core units are not strong enough to win using this commander, that's a complaint with soviet core units that should be discussed independently of the B4.


Again, and I will stress this: You can NOT one shot super heavy tanks only using the B4. Your team mate must interfere with something, most commonly mark vehicle. And a marked vehicle is reversing away from harms way 99% of the times, which in turn makes it a lot harder to hit with the B4, no matter how good you are predicting where the tank is going. This also requires a team mate to begin with. Do we want this commander to be viable in 1v1? I don't care since I only play 2v2 and up, but I guess there are some people that want this and other forgotten Soviet commanders to be a strong choice even in that game mode.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2014, 20:12 PMRomeo
This should go without saying. Again, if opposing units are too powerful then changes to them should be discussed independently of the B4.


Are we discussing units in a vacuum? You must consider that other units become stronger in a way when you are taking away a hard counter to them. The B4 is already hard countered in team games by Ostheer players, it excells against OKW-only teams where it is difficult for them to counter the B4 until the late game (Artillery Flares in combination with Zeroing Artillery as a rough example).


I think the hardest part is to nerf the B4 as you'd like it but not make this commander completely useless. You only pick this commander because of the B4, the KV1 is balanced but not good enough to make this commander useful by its own. For Mother Russia is too expensive when you need all munitions to go the recon ability and precision strike. You can get Shocks anywhere else. How do you suggest we nerf this unit but at the same time make this commander even more attractive?



its not always the best idea to use precision strike on advancing infantry, for reasons you mentioned. personally i find it much more useful in taking out support weapons since a direct hit is always a guaranteed kill and its really unlikely the enemy player will move them. and if youre firing at mid range, the scatter on the b4 isnt all that bad, its pretty good actually.


as i've mentioned before, recon alerts the enemy that youre looking for a target to shoot, so theyll be annoying and try to move units around so theyre harder to hit. its a better idea to just use the vision you already have to pick off targets.


You are absolutely right. I've seen many people trying to get lucky hits on an OKW opponents trucks that are far back and trying to accumulate veterancy that way. You are much better off to use it on units that are closer to your B4 until you have precision strike.

You are also right about your point with the recon plane. But then again, you use the recon not only to find targets for your B4 but also to position yourself for an enemy counterattack. When you use the recon plane you obviously don't try to target the most obvious units but rather lonely support weapons, let's say a mortar for example, that is hidden on the edge of what you can see with your recon plane. The recon plane also gives you an idea of when to target the OKW's medic truck if you see retreating infantry.

If you use precision strike blindly in the fog of war you are doing it wrong. Only use it on medic trucks or bunkers if you can't afford the recon plane.
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