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PAK 40 is overperforming when compared to other AT guns

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10 Oct 2014, 00:17 AM
#61
avatar of ZeaviS

Posts: 160

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2014, 23:10 PMJaigen


Because you are wrong and not a little bit 2. Of all the non doctrinal units the ostheer has the only ones capable of dealing with the soviet heavy armour before reach the panther is the pak and only the pak. nerfing it would completely undermine the ostheer ability to counter soviet callin heavies effectively.,

if the pak was in the okw i would agree with you. as the okw is loaded up to its gills with dedicated tank destroyers and a panther thats much easier to buy then the ost panther.


And how is a soviet player fielding a heavy before you can field a panther? who said anything about making paks completely ineffective against soviet heavies? They are already more effective against tanks than a SU-85. Maybe it should be harder to beat a soviet heavy than just fielding one pak40, similar to how soviets need more than just a zis to beat an axis heavy.
10 Oct 2014, 03:57 AM
#62
avatar of acosn

Posts: 108 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Oct 2014, 23:10 PMJaigen


Because you are wrong and not a little bit 2. Of all the non doctrinal units the ostheer has the only ones capable of dealing with the soviet heavy armour before reach the panther is the pak and only the pak. nerfing it would completely undermine the ostheer ability to counter soviet callin heavies effectively.,

if the pak was in the okw i would agree with you. as the okw is loaded up to its gills with dedicated tank destroyers and a panther thats much easier to buy then the ost panther.



So it is fine for the Ostheer to have a unit in tier 2 that costs no fuel and no munitions to have nearly twice the DPS of comparable AT guns and much more armor penetration while fighting softer targets because the only other counter for Soviet heavy tanks- something not every player will field- is Panthers?


But it is perfectly acceptable that the US has to field M36's to deal with German heavy tanks? Mind you, the OKW can field heavy tanks as a faction without even needing to pick a commander.



Anyone else find it ironic that the US has to have a push-botton ability to make their AT guns viable against armor, while the Ostheer has it built in, while fighting softer armor?
10 Oct 2014, 04:01 AM
#63
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 03:57 AMacosn



So it is fine for the Ostheer to have a unit in tier 2 that costs no fuel and no munitions to have nearly twice the DPS of comparable AT guns and much more armor penetration while fighting softer targets because the only other counter for Soviet heavy tanks- something not every player will field- is Panthers?


But it is perfectly acceptable that the US has to field M36's to deal with German heavy tanks? Mind you, the OKW can field heavy tanks as a faction without even needing to pick a commander.



Anyone else find it ironic that the US has to have a push-botton ability to make their AT guns viable against armor, while the Ostheer has it built in, while fighting softer armor?


Stop questioning asymmetrical balance. :snfCHVGame:
10 Oct 2014, 04:25 AM
#64
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

I havent had a problem against the pak 40, but the USF 57mm AT gun is crap to me, and the R43 cant seem to hit anything...

It takes 3 USF AT guns to scare off a panther, and you need to spend munitions in order to get penetration that is close to normal AT guns. Range in this case doesnt help that much when the AT gun bounces off of everything... and it will die trying to kill a tank, and then you lose all your vet that was needed to make the AT gun useful in the first place.

Raketen takes too long to aim and misses when it tries to shoot somthing. It is only good in buildings and nothing more.

However, vet actually makes it plausible. But for the USF AT gun, i see no bastion. It has failed me time and time again and i have laughed at it with my tanks time and time again.

Give ZiS back its original, useful vet ability, and ill be fine with it.

Target weak point is a very strong ability, but i still dont get the deal why the target weak point for pak 40/pak 43 is different than target weak point on tanks.The TWP on tanks tracks other tanks. TWP on the AT guns targets the ground where the tank once was. What is the deal with this?

Its as trivial a bug as not being able to buy back rifleman flamers and DP's and PTRS on Guards. Its like that easy math problem that you are too lazy to complete, but you know how to solve it because it is solved the same way as the other problems you already did. Its really embarrassing since its been around for many months..


57mm gun for paradrop with crew please. m5 3" gun for non doctrinal AT gun please.

paks just need a slight nerf to their dps and they are fine. zis needs to be made cheaper like 280/300mp, if its going to perform at its current stats. su85s while having decent gun stats, is nerfed to being rather vulnerable with that kind of mobility, bring it up to jadgpanzer chassis stats please.

problems with zis vs KT is that massive frontal armour and KT being able to tackle AT guns head on with that kind of anti infantry power. either 1 has to go, KT needs thinner frontal armour or lesser AI power from its main cannon.
10 Oct 2014, 07:56 AM
#65
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41



Target weak point is a very strong ability, but i still dont get the deal why the target weak point for pak 40/pak 43 is different than target weak point on tanks.The TWP on tanks tracks other tanks. TWP on the AT guns targets the ground where the tank once was. What is the deal with this?


If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you why:

If TWP worked like tanks, you could oneshot allied tanks without the player being able to do anything. Let PaK fire off one round, immediately activate TWP, PaK will also immediately fire after it because TWP is in no way tied to reload of the primary weapon, and it will fire a fourth time before the stun wears off. Any non-doctrinal allied tank dead just from showing up in the firing cone of a single pak40.
10 Oct 2014, 09:23 AM
#66
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 03:57 AMacosn



So it is fine
for the Ostheer to have a unit in tier 2 that costs no fuel and no munitions to have nearly twice the DPS of comparable AT guns and much more armor penetration while fighting softer targets because the only other counter for Soviet heavy tanks- something not every player will field- is Panthers?


Yes it is. Jacksons are without a doubt the best TD's currently in the game. And in the OKW is in the same boat, they to need to invest fuel into TD's to deal with soviet heavies. or any other tank for that matter because while you complain about the usf AT gun its still better vanilla state then the rakttenwerfer.
10 Oct 2014, 09:30 AM
#67
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 00:17 AMZeaviS


And how is a soviet player fielding a heavy before you can field a panther? who said anything about making paks completely ineffective against soviet heavies? They are already more effective against tanks than a SU-85. Maybe it should be harder to beat a soviet heavy than just fielding one pak40, similar to how soviets need more than just a zis to beat an axis heavy.


Because thats how the current meta works. Soviets forego teching and wait till they have access to 85,is2 or kv1's. This gives them a rather huge mp and fuel advantage.
Simply put teching up to tier 3 or 4 as ostheer is suicidal. even if you get tanks out they will be of significant lower quality in the case of tier 3. p4 vs 85 is a lopsided affair in favour for the 85. in the case of tier 4 your panther will be outnumbered 3 to 1.

Now the allies on the other hand can tech up and get some very good TD's in form of the su85 and jackson not to mention their medium tank callins are nearly as powerful their td's.
10 Oct 2014, 10:51 AM
#68
avatar of Kamfrenchie

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 09:30 AMJaigen


Because thats how the current meta works. Soviets forego teching and wait till they have access to 85,is2 or kv1's. This gives them a rather huge mp and fuel advantage.
Simply put teching up to tier 3 or 4 as ostheer is suicidal. even if you get tanks out they will be of significant lower quality in the case of tier 3. p4 vs 85 is a lopsided affair in favour for the 85. in the case of tier 4 your panther will be outnumbered 3 to 1.

Now the allies on the other hand can tech up and get some very good TD's in form of the su85 and jackson not to mention their medium tank callins are nearly as powerful their td's.



but then we can assume ostheer is doing the same with tiger or tiger ace no ?


I also don't get the hate for racketen
Sure it has trouble hitting m3, but i find it hits tanks fairly reliable, vets fairly fast, penetrates often, and is cheap. I always try stealing them when i can.
10 Oct 2014, 11:02 AM
#69
avatar of MoBo111

Posts: 150

It seems to me this is another thread compaining about the axis being op. Ok, in my opinion the pak 40 is in a good spot as it is right now. It has absolutely no ai capability, unlike the zis gun, but to balance this the pak is a very good at gun. Sure, it might be strong, but there's much more stuff right now and the pak isn't the most important issue. A good example just for the axis side are the raketenwerfer , the panzerwerfer and the 105mm howizer. It is really good, but i don't think it needs to be nerfed or the other at guns buffed. I suggest to increase it's price to 350 mp. Ans honestly, if you are stupid enough to stand still in front of an at gun you deserve to get stunned.
10 Oct 2014, 11:21 AM
#70
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130




but then we can assume ostheer is doing the same with tiger or tiger ace no ?


I also don't get the hate for racketen
Sure it has trouble hitting m3, but i find it hits tanks fairly reliable, vets fairly fast, penetrates often, and is cheap. I always try stealing them when i can.


not entirely since the 85 callins are still better then the tiger tank. and the ace can come out to late. and as i said before its entirely possible for the soviets and usf to pump out their TD's (most simply refuse to do so in 1 vs 1) but not for the ostheer.
10 Oct 2014, 12:37 PM
#71
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 04:25 AMwongtp


57mm gun for paradrop with crew please.



+ crewed paradroped .50 cal.
10 Oct 2014, 13:38 PM
#72
avatar of Seeker

Posts: 83

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 12:37 PMJohnnyB


+ crewed paradroped .50 cal.


I feel that would be abused a lot, imagine them dropping a crewed weapon near tank that is repairing or on cutoff/fuel/muni. I would be ok with it if they made it LOS only.
10 Oct 2014, 13:57 PM
#73
avatar of Kamfrenchie

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 11:21 AMJaigen


not entirely since the 85 callins are still better then the tiger tank. and the ace can come out to late. and as i said before its entirely possible for the soviets and usf to pump out their TD's (most simply refuse to do so in 1 vs 1) but not for the ostheer.


well su85 can be very underwhelming at his job, given that blitzkrieg allows german tanks to lose in fast.
I honestly wouldn't say the 85 are better than the tiger, plus with 1-2 paks and maybe shreck pgrens you can at least keep them at bay.
10 Oct 2014, 15:19 PM
#74
avatar of Snipester
Patrion 39

Posts: 102

PAK is a very defensive unit, as are most AT guns. Using them aggressively is a great way to get them stolen. Ostheer is also overall a defensively focused faction until they get tanks out, especially vs. US where they are going to be more or less outmatched for the majority of the early game due to tech costs.

Ost is designed to be able to hold strong defensive lines. Nerfing the PAK IMO would weaken their potency and weaken the ability to hold these lines.
10 Oct 2014, 15:47 PM
#75
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 13:38 PMSeeker


I feel that would be abused a lot, imagine them dropping a crewed weapon near tank that is repairing or on cutoff/fuel/muni. I would be ok with it if they made it LOS only.


Thats not much different than dropping paratroopers somewhere... And a lone AT gun in enemy territory is a death sentence.

Doesnt matter since It will never happen, anyways...
10 Oct 2014, 17:14 PM
#76
avatar of acosn

Posts: 108 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 09:23 AMJaigen


Yes it is. Jacksons are without a doubt the best TD's currently in the game. And in the OKW is in the same boat, they to need to invest fuel into TD's to deal with soviet heavies. or any other tank for that matter because while you complain about the usf AT gun its still better vanilla state then the rakttenwerfer.



Ah yes the lowest HP tank fighter in the game is "fine" because....



Well if you can convince a panther to move in range it wont waste it's first round due to scatter penalties while moving, it'll still need to win its dice rolls seeing as though it'll have around half the penetration of the panther's frontal armor.


No, I'd rather have an elephant or a jadgtiger to be honest.


And it isn't on accident that the Rack's the best urban AT gun. Considering it is a tier 0 AT gun that can garrison buildings and gets camo via vet you're getting a lot more than you seem willing to admit. If there's an issue it is that free-flying rocket projectiles respect the curve of the terrain where a normal AT round wouldn't.
10 Oct 2014, 17:26 PM
#77
avatar of ZeaviS

Posts: 160

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Oct 2014, 09:30 AMJaigen


Because thats how the current meta works. Soviets forego teching and wait till they have access to 85,is2 or kv1's. This gives them a rather huge mp and fuel advantage.
Simply put teching up to tier 3 or 4 as ostheer is suicidal. even if you get tanks out they will be of significant lower quality in the case of tier 3. p4 vs 85 is a lopsided affair in favour for the 85. in the case of tier 4 your panther will be outnumbered 3 to 1.

Now the allies on the other hand can tech up and get some very good TD's in form of the su85 and jackson not to mention their medium tank callins are nearly as powerful their td's.


They still have to wait to get enough CP to be able to call them in. I can't just not build tanks until I get heavies because of the CP gate. I'll have to get tier 3 or 4 to survive until I can get heavies. You'll have P4s way before I can call in 85s. You say Jacksons are the best tank destroyers in the game, and yet a pak40 does more dps. 85s while having a good amount of armor and health, are not as powerful as TDs in terms of damage output and penetration against armor.

Also, I'm not really sure why people are saying the raketten is bad, it does more DPS than a Zis.
10 Oct 2014, 17:30 PM
#78
avatar of StephennJF

Posts: 934

Pak40 is balanced verse SOV.

Pak40 is unbalanced verse USF for the reasons including:
  • It kills a Stuart tank in 2 shots and forces the Stuart to be used extremely cautiously otherwise you lose a major fuel investment. It is incredibly easy to kill the Stuart on the majority of 1v1 maps as Ostheer if you listen in the fog of war and have a sense of timing. If the Stuart is within a certain position of the Pak40, even at full health it will die unless the pak40 misses (rare).
  • USF can only win the infantry MP war currently through good vehicle play due to weakness of Rifles transitioning in the mid/late game. The pak40 can completely shut this down on the majority of 1v1 maps and you end up losing both the infantry and armour wars as USF purely from LMG grens/pak40 and maybe one P4.


My balance suggestion would not be to nerf the pak40 at all but buff other USF units to compensate as otherwise you will effect the Soviet match up. Suggested changes include:
  • Buff Stuart health so that it can withstand 2 Pak40 shots. 2 Pak40 shots + panzerfaust should result in a kill though.
  • Buff BAR upgrades so LMG grens can actually be countered without armour or burning through munitions on smoke/pineapple grenades at every single engagement.


At the moment I believe OST is incredibly easy to play verse USF once you handle the early AAHT/M20 from them on the majority of maps. LMG gren, pak40 and P4 is all you need. The suggested changes will also permit USF to actually use T3 verse OST opposed to having to go T2 every single game! I am sick and tired of the USF meta where only 1 stratergy is viable on the majority of maps. Boring.
10 Oct 2014, 17:42 PM
#79
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Pak40 is balanced verse SOV.

Pak40 is unbalanced verse USF for the reasons including:
  • It kills a Stuart tank in 2 shots and forces the Stuart to be used extremely cautiously otherwise you lose a major fuel investment. It is incredibly easy to kill the Stuart on the majority of 1v1 maps as Ostheer if you listen in the fog of war and have a sense of timing. If the Stuart is within a certain position of the Pak40, even at full health it will die unless the pak0 miss (rare).
  • USF can only win the infantry MP war currently through good vehicle play due to weakness of Rifles transitioning in the mid/late game. The pak40 can completely shut this down on the majority of 1v1 maps and you end up losing both the infantry and armour wars as USF purely from LMG grens/pak40 and maybe one P4.


My balance suggestion would not be to nerf the pak40 at all but buff other USF units to compensate as otherwise you will effect the Soviet match up. Suggested changes include:
  • Buff stuart health so that it can withstand 2 Pak40 shots. 2 Pak40 shots + panzerfaust should result in a kill though.
  • Buff BAR upgrades so LMG grens can actually be countered without armour or burning through munitions on smoke/pineapple grenades at every single engagement.


At the moment I believe OST is incredibly easy to play verse USF once you handle the early AAHT/M20 from them on the majority of maps. LMG gren, pak40 and P4 is all you need.


Very good points and very good suggestions. I dont mind the luchs having more health as to survive 3 AT gun shots, but then the t-70 and m5 stuart die in 2, yet, are the same degree of light tanks.

I will never play USF with enjoyment as USF has to pay fortunes of munitons just to keep up with the enemy, who spends less/no munitions in the matter to overcome USF. BARS and bazookas are rather underpowered for their cost. 6 bazookas cannot deal with a panther unless the panther shows its rear, while 4 panzerschrecks will scare any Allied tank from the front. The USF 57 AT gun for me is a waste, as in desperate situations of losing against OKW, they bounce too much to penetrate heavy tanks and even 3 wont suffice. The range is good, but doesnt matter much when those shots bounce. The USF AT gun makes the ZiS look GOOD. It is ridiculous that USF has to constantly pay munitions to keep up with basic utilities of other factions.
10 Oct 2014, 18:05 PM
#80
avatar of ZeaviS

Posts: 160

Pak40 is balanced verse SOV.

Pak40 is unbalanced verse USF for the reasons including:
  • It kills a Stuart tank in 2 shots and forces the Stuart to be used extremely cautiously otherwise you lose a major fuel investment. It is incredibly easy to kill the Stuart on the majority of 1v1 maps as Ostheer if you listen in the fog of war and have a sense of timing. If the Stuart is within a certain position of the Pak40, even at full health it will die unless the pak40 misses (rare).
  • USF can only win the infantry MP war currently through good vehicle play due to weakness of Rifles transitioning in the mid/late game. The pak40 can completely shut this down on the majority of 1v1 maps and you end up losing both the infantry and armour wars as USF purely from LMG grens/pak40 and maybe one P4.


My balance suggestion would not be to nerf the pak40 at all but buff other USF units to compensate as otherwise you will effect the Soviet match up. Suggested changes include:
  • Buff Stuart health so that it can withstand 2 Pak40 shots. 2 Pak40 shots + panzerfaust should result in a kill though.
  • Buff BAR upgrades so LMG grens can actually be countered without armour or burning through munitions on smoke/pineapple grenades at every single engagement.


At the moment I believe OST is incredibly easy to play verse USF once you handle the early AAHT/M20 from them on the majority of maps. LMG gren, pak40 and P4 is all you need. The suggested changes will also permit USF to actually use T3 verse OST opposed to having to go T2 every single game! I am sick and tired of the USF meta where only 1 stratergy is viable on the majority of maps. Boring.


How do the issues you describe with USF not apply to sov as well? because they have access to heavy tanks?
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