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russian armor

Demolition

6 Aug 2014, 07:56 AM
#21
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987



I could put there literally anything wehrmacht have, starting from free rifle nades and pfaust, ending on tanks that are much stronger then any other for the sake of argument.

No different for OKW.

So please, stop looking for excuses, your beloved faction of choice got more advantages then you think so, but you don't know because you never fight against it.

Accept asymetrical balance and play other army if you like their features more, SS won't shoot anyone for not being blind axis lovers if you play other side of the fence if you like other armies features.


You have literally no control of your own snide-snark tone do you? It's like you're stuck in some alt-reality where everyone has to provoke at least 10 people a day to earn their food. "beloved faction of choice", "SS won't shoot anyone", "blind axis lovers". You're in permanent drama mode.


And Brutus made some excellent points. Comparing demo to an AT gun that can garrison a house is... Well, it's one of your weakest arguments yet:
The pueppchen has other disadvantages to compensate for it's ueber-house ability (no green cover like ZIS/PAK, shorter range than ZIS/PAK, no barrage ability like ZIS) and you can only garrison a house if there's a house, which brings us back to demo being laid everyhere.



One point you also missed, Katitof, is that each army generally has some equivalent of what the other army has. It's not like cons have molotovs but noone else has any kind of grenade. It's not like Ost has a HT for reinforcing and noone else has a HT / reinforce point. Everyone has their own version of things. So chew on that while you're screaming "ASSYMETRICAL BALANCE!"

6 Aug 2014, 08:04 AM
#22
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

Is it possible to program so that demo charges are revealed all the time but invisible in cover? That would make more sense and stop people using them as "uberminen".

Back on topic, I find that using a tellermine as a demo charge works fairly well. I know tellermine deals 500 damage according to coh2 stats but anyone knows the damage from demo charge? In coh2 stats it says 250 but I thought I have seen it do more damage.
6 Aug 2014, 09:22 AM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17885 | Subs: 8



You have literally no control of your own snide-snark tone do you?

No :( but I'm trying.
One point you also missed, Katitof, is that each army generally has some equivalent of what the other army has. It's not like cons have molotovs but noone else has any kind of grenade. It's not like Ost has a HT for reinforcing and noone else has a HT / reinforce point. Everyone has their own version of things. So chew on that while you're screaming "ASSYMETRICAL BALANCE!"


No, not really.
What is soviet equivalent for stock long range AI infantry?
What is soviet equivalent for tank smoke?
What is allies equivalent for mine field?
What is axis equivalent for T34/85?
What is allies equivalent for MGs that can counter light armor effectively(incendiary rounds)?
What is OKW equivalent for snipers?
What is soviet/OKW equivalent for teller mines?
What is soviet equivalent of actual arty barrage off map?
What is axis equivalent of M3/dodge?

And so on and so forth.

So no, other then having generalist tank and a way to damage engine and some form of on map arty. There are some similarities, but its hardly equivalent. Comparing soviet M5 or wehr 251 to OKW medic truck isn't really valid.

Or what is equivalent of pshrecks for OKW for soviets? AT nades?
Minor similarities, no equivalents of everything hidden in other units.

My point still stands.
6 Aug 2014, 10:00 AM
#24
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779


No :( but I'm trying.

No, not really.


And so on and so forth.

So no, other then having generalist tank and a way to damage engine and some form of on map arty. There are some similarities, but its hardly equivalent. Comparing soviet M5 or wehr 251 to OKW medic truck isn't really valid.

Or what is equivalent of pshrecks for OKW for soviets? AT nades?
Minor similarities, no equivalents of everything hidden in other units.

My point still stands.


You know what "some" means?

What is soviet equivalent for stock long range AI infantry? Guards DP
What is soviet equivalent for tank smoke? Mortar smoke
What is allies equivalent for mine field? Doctrinal AI mine
What is axis equivalent for T34/85? P4
What is allies equivalent for MGs that can counter light armor effectively(incendiary rounds)? DsHK
What is OKW equivalent for snipers? I count G43 fusilier with sturmofficer
What is soviet/OKW equivalent for teller mines? Mines with demo
What is soviet equivalent of actual arty barrage off map? Sturmvik bombing run
What is axis equivalent of M3/dodge? 250

Katitoff, you really lose all credit after our last game. :/
6 Aug 2014, 10:11 AM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17885 | Subs: 8



You know what "some" means?

What is soviet equivalent for stock long range AI infantry? Guards DP

Hardly a stock infantry.
What is soviet equivalent for tank smoke? Mortar smoke

Unless you are farseer, can't use it in the same defensive way.
What is allies equivalent for mine field? Doctrinal AI mine

Was thinking about that as well, so 0,5 point for you.
What is axis equivalent for T34/85? P4

Isn't that equivalent of T34/76 and stock sherman? Unless you want to put StuG here for whatever reason.
What is allies equivalent for MGs that can counter light armor effectively(incendiary rounds)? DsHK

Not. Even. Close. DSHK AP rounds made sense against old german 1.5 armor infantry, it never was any threat to light vehicles because of really low ROF, relatively high accuracy and lack of 100% damage boost.
What is OKW equivalent for snipers? I count G43 fusilier with sturmofficer

Hardly.
What is soviet/OKW equivalent for teller mines? Mines with demo

Still infantry will walk over it and still it does less for twice the cost, even if you consider USF AT light mine.
What is soviet equivalent of actual arty barrage off map? Sturmvik bombing run

Stuka dive bomb then?
What is axis equivalent of M3/dodge? 250

Completely forgot about that one, point for you.

Katitoff, you really lose all credit after our last game. :/

Last time you blamed our loss on katiusha and my team mate fail(can't find a better one with my playing schedule). One can hold only so long if team mate suicides tigers "because it was worth it" and tier buildings are nuked over and over.
6 Aug 2014, 10:18 AM
#26
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779


Last time you blamed our loss on katiusha and my team mate fail(can't find a better one with my playing schedule). One can hold only so long if team mate suicides tigers "because it was worth it" and tier buildings are nuked over and over.


and yet you defend the insane Kat 1-click nuker for the NKVD or whatever
I don't care if you admit it or not, you are very biased to Allies. :/
6 Aug 2014, 10:40 AM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17885 | Subs: 8

I've never defended it.
I've said if Stuka is fine, so is kat, if kat is op, so is the stuka.

Never said anything different.

Feel free to skim through my post history or old kat thread, you'll find exactly what I've said now.
I do have my preferences(there are playstyles that appeal to me and there are ones that don't, USF and wehr clearly don't appeal to me as much as sov and OKW), and so do you.

If anything, I'm biased against double standards that these boards are filled with up the roof.

I can count threads where someone complains about advantages of other army without completely ignoring advantages of their own on fingers of one hand. That is what enrages me, because at the end devs don't listen to one faction 4v4 heroes that are so eager to make balance threads and the game will eventually balanced as much as it can be for all armies, regardless of what fanboys on either side say.
6 Aug 2014, 11:59 AM
#30
avatar of Flamee

Posts: 710

Let's stick to the original post rather than point fingers who prefers which faction.

We all have our faction/side which we prefer over others.

To the actual post, I have to admit, never crossed my mind that this would be an issue. Demos are a neat trick, which I unfortunately forget too often. Also when playing Axis, I haven't really thought that it's something I absolutely need. Sure, you might get squad wipes every now and then but also attacks should be lead in general by minesweeping squad.
6 Aug 2014, 12:26 PM
#31
avatar of BrutusHR

Posts: 262

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Aug 2014, 11:59 AMFlamee
Let's stick to the original post rather than point fingers who prefers which faction.

We all have our faction/side which we prefer over others.

To the actual post, I have to admit, never crossed my mind that this would be an issue. Demos are a neat trick, which I unfortunately forget too often. Also when playing Axis, I haven't really thought that it's something I absolutely need. Sure, you might get squad wipes every now and then but also attacks should be lead in general by minesweeping squad.


Well, it can be very tricky when u now that enemy is laying demos, not mines :D
They are good to punish blobing, so if enemy is atleast decent he will move his blob more carefuly when he feel the taste of demo thus u (theoretically) have more time to react on his move. Sure, demos can't be spamed, but 2 demo somwhere on road is still high risk for them because enemy tend to move units in big pile (aka blob). And if u can exploit his attack just bait him to go towards demo.
7 Aug 2014, 03:11 AM
#32
avatar of Severino

Posts: 38

Give pioneers demo charges and sturmpios demo charges through doctrine. It's a basic item that all factions should have access to, just like wire, regular mines, fighting emplacements etc.
7 Aug 2014, 03:24 AM
#33
avatar of Shadow

Posts: 89

Some mega derailing going on here....

Okw get booby traps which you cant detect and the other german mine field is sick its huge!! Ofc you can mine detector it but that slows you down and costs you ammo.

90 ammo is not cheap but the other day I got 5 squads with the usa demos lol I just spammed 4 of them and built ammo caches, no riflemen at all.

They do well and let you float so much manpower. By the time they had p4s ect I had hellcats and then bulldozers. 2 hellcats raped a tiger with 2 bulldozers taking the damage.

I was messing around as I give up on random 2v2 for ranked but it turned out pretty good. Just demo key points and enjoy :)
7 Aug 2014, 11:54 AM
#34
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Aug 2014, 03:24 AMShadow
Some mega derailing going on here....

Okw get booby traps which you cant detect and the other german mine field is sick its huge!! Ofc you can mine detector it but that slows you down and costs you ammo.

90 ammo is not cheap but the other day I got 5 squads with the usa demos lol I just spammed 4 of them and built ammo caches, no riflemen at all.

They do well and let you float so much manpower. By the time they had p4s ect I had hellcats and then bulldozers. 2 hellcats raped a tiger with 2 bulldozers taking the damage.

I was messing around as I give up on random 2v2 for ranked but it turned out pretty good. Just demo key points and enjoy :)



Hmm, yeah the OKW demo should be visible too. And so should the soviet doctrinal booby-trap. And standard Soviet demo.

There should be a decent chance to avoid it since it's such a wipe-tool.
7 Aug 2014, 12:56 PM
#35
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467

In vCoH couldn't demo charges become visible at a certain radius? Or was that just minesweepers? I think some P.E. troops could detect them too. Either way I think an instant invisible squad wipe is too OP.
7 Aug 2014, 12:56 PM
#36
avatar of FrikadelleXXL

Posts: 390

Permanently Banned
No, I disagree. Right placing should be rewarded and it costs 90 munition!!!
7 Aug 2014, 13:00 PM
#37
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

I would love to see engineers getting XP/vet for kills by mines and democharges. If that gets implemented I will be shedding tears of happiness.

Vaz
7 Aug 2014, 13:08 PM
#38
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

if it was visible it would not be built. It sounds like the receivers just want to remove the weapon from the game basically. The only people that are going to walk into a visible demo charge is noobs or people not paying attention. These things are still being used to this day and work on all the advanced modern military's of today. They are doing what they are supposed to do.
7 Aug 2014, 13:17 PM
#39
avatar of Showtaro

Posts: 121

It CAN be detected by minesweepers, the only problem is that you cant shoot it when visible like in CoH 1.

But you can always thrown a grenade.
7 Aug 2014, 13:30 PM
#40
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

While I don't mind only the allies having it, I think the ability to lay them anywhere and everywhere should be reconsidered. Perhaps onlyon structures of some kind?

It's a pretty esy way to get squad wipes :/ Perhaps if they weren't invisible? I understand mines being invisible, they're underground. But demo is on the surface. Ostheer AI mines have signposts, could a little black box be added to demo?



And Katitof, there's that snide and snarky tone again. Why not just say "balance is assymetrical, some armies have units/abilities which others do not"? Why can't you just speak civilly to people here? Why are you so angered by every post you see that you have to reply in such a way? The guy asked a fair question, give a decent answer eh?


As if demo can't be planted underground too. :)
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