MG 42 The Most Useless Unit In The Game

Just related to MG42s, if you catch a chance and see Andy fielding MG42s, head into his stream and watch.

As the 1v1 Nr#1 Ost player, he has recently been fielding 2xMGs with great effect. I KNOW I would not be able to do the same, but its very interesting and informative use, especially when considering the current MG42 dilemma.

In my observation, Andy plays the MG42 against its intended use.
Instead of a backline supporter, he often pairs them together, as a hard AI force, many times independant of Gren support. His situational awareness is also excellent, where he brings them up early to support upcoming engagements in an offensive backup role.

Also notable is how he microes them when a Con gets a successful flank and attempts a Molotov. He desetups WELL before it reaches the flank, when he sees it is indeed going to make it, and then runs it laterally for a resetup. More often that not, he has also brought a Gren over to support.

Note: This doesnt dispute MG42s lacks, just very interesting to see such a proficient player using them. And I think very important to do so, so as to inform what changes to make, so as to not inadvertently make them OP when in the hands of a player such as Andy. And with all due respect to him, I dont think a pro opponent comparable to him, would fall for the same 2xMG strat at second time. It has many vulnerabilities.

Frankly, I wouldnt be surprised if his MG play is what wins him SNF. Its one thing to leverage wins as Sov, as many players have uptil now in SNF. But if you can win even one game as Ost, you really fk your opponent. Andys MG use may be exactly the key to that. Id love to see Andy vs OMGPops recent re-discovery of M3 Spam!
Will he 222? Will he Mine? Or will Vetted MGs make the key?

Good stuff. SNF for life.

I disagree with reading way too much into Andy's play. He's actually using MG42s as intended, which is because MG42s were intended to be used with support, any support, doesn't matter if it happens to be another MG42.

And, it's clear that the Relic designers are now intending that all MGs require micro to use effectively, since previously the MG42 could act without micro, or support. How much micro or support is needed is an issue that should be looked at by people with more time than I.

Even the Maxim, despite it being pretty good at suppression, requires you go get a narrow firing cone on the enemy. Sure, it is quick to setup and breakdown, but you still need to get it pointing in the right direction.

Heck, one of the major complaints of the Soviet Defensive commander is the DSHKs go against that design intent to require micro. Then again, it is a defensive commander.

I've never seen you in Andys stream.
Hes streaming right now, come in and see for yourself.

And claiming MG42 doesnt require micro? Oh my please...
And claiming you cant read into the #1 Ost 1v1 players MG use? Oh my please...

Edit: Hes off for 30mins...

And claiming MG42 doesnt require micro? Oh my please...

He claimed that they did not require micro before. And it didn't back in it's OP days. You could A-move the thing and it would set up and insta-pin anything it came across.

Now, they do require micro, which he believed to be relics intention.

I disagree with reading way too much into Andy's play. He's actually using MG42s as intended, which is because MG42s were intended to be used with support, any support, doesn't matter if it happens to be another MG42.

And, it's clear that the Relic designers are now intending that all MGs require micro to use effectively, since previously the MG42 could act without micro, or support. How much micro or support is needed is an issue that should be looked at by people with more time than I.

Even the Maxim, despite it being pretty good at suppression, requires you go get a narrow firing cone on the enemy. Sure, it is quick to setup and breakdown, but you still need to get it pointing in the right direction.

Heck, one of the major complaints of the Soviet Defensive commander is the DSHKs go against that design intent to require micro. Then again, it is a defensive commander.

Which is perfectly logical really. It's a continuation of its intended role as far back as vCOH. MGs were never meant to be used alone to guard some far-off place, they were meant to be a crucial unit that you support to great effect. The anomaly is not the current MG; it was the pre-nerf MG that could suppress two units in its large arc of fire with barely any micro from the German player's part. The fact that it's an MG doesn't mean it should sit in one place and destroy anything on legs that come at it. The repositioning game is and should be a key part of MG play.

Now, again, it still needs a buff. But a small one only.

The level of butthurt in these posts is astonishing.

MG42 is great. Of course it's frustrating when yours dies. That's the point.

mg42 is great for people that want to run up to the front of it and kill it, is what I suspect you mean. As for as being useful for the person who builds it, it is weak sauce.

Which is perfectly logical really. It's a continuation of its intended role as far back as vCOH. MGs were never meant to be used alone to guard some far-off place, they were meant to be a crucial unit that you support to great effect. The anomaly is not the current MG; it was the pre-nerf MG that could suppress two units in its large arc of fire with barely any micro from the German player's part. The fact that it's an MG doesn't mean it should sit in one place and destroy anything on legs that come at it. The repositioning game is and should be a key part of MG play.

Now, again, it still needs a buff. But a small one only.

Never meant to be? It always was, even from the beginning.It didn't get nerfed until soviet fanboys started crying about how they couldn't run straight in its face and kill it. An mg could hold its own if set up properly. The whole point of the mg was to deal with mass infantry. Now it cant even deal with one from the front, . If 2 inf squads run up to it from the front, it will only be able to suppress one unless they were blobbed up. What kind of weak sauce is that. Whats the point of even building one now?

I disagree with reading way too much into Andy's play. He's actually using MG42s as intended, which is because MG42s were intended to be used with support, any support, doesn't matter if it happens to be another MG42.

And, it's clear that the Relic designers are now intending that all MGs require micro to use effectively, since previously the MG42 could act without micro, or support. How much micro or support is needed is an issue that should be looked at by people with more time than I.

Even the Maxim, despite it being pretty good at suppression, requires you go get a narrow firing cone on the enemy. Sure, it is quick to setup and breakdown, but you still need to get it pointing in the right direction.

Heck, one of the major complaints of the Soviet Defensive commander is the DSHKs go against that design intent to require micro. Then again, it is a defensive commander.

Really? So an mg with a long set up time but wide arc was/is op, while an mg that can set up, turn and fire instantly by 1 click targeting a unit was always fine..............

Im guessing that one click is more micro intensive then pre planning and drag facing toward your opponents .....

Yes, an MG with its long setup, wide arc, instant suppress and pin ability did get out of hand.

There was plenty of evidence of people flanking MGs properly, only to have to heavily suppress or pin 1-2 units from one angle, pack up, move, and setup again to deal with the enemy from another angle.

It was even worse when they were supported by anything, which meant you could lackadaisically reposition the MG42 as the units chasing it would take fire from its support.

And that's the reason why the MG42 was nerfed, and maybe it could use a buff now. But it definitely should not be made back to those previous levels. Thing is, any change directly buffing its suppression without another change to make it more situational can lead to the same problems as before.

You might think I don't know the problem with the MG42, and that I never want to see it hit the field again, you would be wrong. I want to see MGs in use all the time. But I also want to play a game where Soviet infantry can actually move to flank.

And that's why I'm recommending such caution when they buff the MG42 again.

^I agree. But not only the Surpression was nerfed, but also the survivabilty and the turn rate. 1 or 2 of the changes would've been ok, but all 3 were over the top.

Yeah, I think the multiple nerfs from different directions is the heart of the issue.

Relic has always had a problem of not rolling back balance changes in one area, when balance changes in other have an overlapping effect.

I'm starting to get demoralised...

So am I, should we?

Never meant to be? It always was, even from the beginning.It didn't get nerfed until soviet fanboys started crying about how they couldn't run straight in its face and kill it. An mg could hold its own if set up properly. The whole point of the mg was to deal with mass infantry. Now it cant even deal with one from the front, . If 2 inf squads run up to it from the front, it will only be able to suppress one unless they were blobbed up. What kind of weak sauce is that. Whats the point of even building one now?

''set up properly'' meaning ''pointing it in the general direction of the enemy base and not having to worry about infantry in that area ever''. It was a very low-skill unit to use back in the day. It's not supposed to be like this. An Mg should suppress one unit, and be helpless against 2 unless it repositions or is supported (unless those units bunch up on top of each other, of course). A lone MG is most definitely not meant to defeat an infantry-heavy strategy, that would be silly and that's exactly why the doctrinal Soviet MG is overpowered.

2 units charging head on should not be able to take out an MG imo. it should require flanking.

The Mg42 is probably close to where it should be. I wouldn't mind a little more suppression , but we really shouldn't go back to the days where you couldn't flank the damned things.

2 units charging head on should not be able to take out an MG imo. it should require flanking.

Meh, so long as a player is good enough to have one unit take fire while the other one charges forward, an unmicroed MG should lose. And in this scenario the Ostheer player can still retarget the 2nd unit and suppress it too in some cases. But even in vCOH, leaving an MG alone was begging for it to be flanked and decrewed, and in that game they died much more easily. The only real difference between the two is that conscripts have Ooorah, which I still think should not be unlocked at first (perhaps once one or both upgrades have been purchased?). Oorah really helps with flanking or even assaulting from the front. A bit too much I find.

So am I, should we?

Do you want more things like what we got from "Turning Point"? Then no.

even stoping oorah would not help the Mg42, cons can still run to it close enough to throw a molotov before they get suppressed,

in vcoh an HMG was a nice weapon especially for keeping enemys at range or prevent infblob rush (hey i have 3 rifle squads i just charge your Volks) it was an threat here an MG42 (the only HMG in game that does the same as in vcoh and is no upgunned attackunit) you can just charge through it throw the molo on it and see it leave or die and it will atleast take a lot of damage because the molo will hit 90%the time if the enemy uses oorah casue an MG42 does not repostion as fast as the maxim

before they nerfed it, it was an danger and an russian player needed to think a bit to counter it, well not much flanking and Mg42 should be logic (for me personally it was still easy mode compared to vcoh cause you had oorah and the allpurpose molo which not only kills mgs in the open but also roasts them in buildings)

now if i see russians fighting an Mg42 it looks like the scenes in the Campaign... just run through the MG with 1500/RPM Firerate, nothing will happen

and god beware if you loose it and the russian takes it over as a german destroying it is not the same easymode cause you dont have molotovs which forces it to move or die

Do you want more things like what we got from "Turning Point"? Then no.

If you refer to retarded commanders that break with basic gamplay mechanics then the answer is NO! OH GOD NO!

If you refer to balance changes such as the veterancy overhaul or the +240mp start, then my answer is ok why not.

So should we be demoralized now?