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russian armor

Is it wrong to ask for lmg upgrades for PG's

21 Dec 2019, 19:18 PM
#21
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2019, 19:15 PMLago


Humans are terrible at processing probability because of a little thing called confirmation bias. That's why we look at the actual unit stats.

And they give Grenadiers a substantial damage advantage in long range engagements.

Grens as squad wise have 5% more dps and Rifle squad wise has 15% more hp. So really statistically they don't have any advantage.
21 Dec 2019, 19:28 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

And that is why in the original designed Ostheer used to have an advantage in support weapons. But gradually that advantage has become smaller.
21 Dec 2019, 19:33 PM
#23
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2019, 19:28 PMVipper
And that is why in the original designed Ostheer used to have an advantage in support weapons. But gradually that advantage has become smaller.

Well at least I don't have to play ost.
21 Dec 2019, 19:49 PM
#24
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


Common bro i'm a 4 digit ranked player and I still circumvented you MG's like they were nothing when we played. Are still going to argue about that.


I don’t use Mgs at the start the same way you use an MG42 to support riflemen since I stall for PGrens. For a more traditional build start vs USF refer to this game vs RepoRogue

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/498019089
21 Dec 2019, 19:54 PM
#25
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Grens as squad wise have 5% more dps and Rifle squad wise has 15% more hp. So really statistically they don't have any advantage.


The damage squads do changes with range.
21 Dec 2019, 22:24 PM
#26
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2


Wait The devs want Grens to loose at all ranges against Rifles. Wow... no wonder the game is a total cluster fuck in terms of balance. Then there's no point talking about it then. The devs really want ost to suck.


Did you forget how how much cheaper Grenadiers are per squad compared to Riflemen?

Likewise, stock Volksgrenadiers stomp stock Conscripts because Volks are more expensive.
22 Dec 2019, 04:49 AM
#27
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



I don’t use Mgs at the start the same way you use an MG42 to support riflemen since I stall for PGrens. For a more traditional build start vs USF refer to this game vs RepoRogue

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/498019089

Trust me, I would still manage to nullify your mg's. When I saw those bulletins I knew what was coming dude.
22 Dec 2019, 04:52 AM
#28
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2019, 22:24 PMKasarov


Did you forget how how much cheaper Grenadiers are per squad compared to Riflemen?

Likewise, stock Volksgrenadiers stomp stock Conscripts because Volks are more expensive.

Panzer Grens cost 340 you don't see them beat riflemen at every range do you??? By you logic why should riflemen be allowed to win from long range either???
And Volks don't win from every range dude.
22 Dec 2019, 05:34 AM
#29
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



https://m.twitch.tv/videos/498019089


Wow, Repo's engagement management was really poor.
22 Dec 2019, 13:25 PM
#30
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Panzer Grens cost 340 you don't see them beat riflemen at every range do you??? By you logic why should riflemen be allowed to win from long range either???
And Volks don't win from every range dude.


You're adding the 'at every range', and it's not how CoH 2 works.

Squads have variable damage with range. SMG troops do a fuckton close up but very little at range. LMGs do a fuckton at range but actually get worse close up.

Penals and Riflemen are generalists, so they beat long-range specialists (like Grens) at short and mid range, and lose at long range.

Similarly, squads do less damage (often 50% less damage) while moving, so already being in position at the start of the fight is often decisive. Conscripts can beat Sturmpioneers if they're in cover and the Sturmpioneers have to close because they'll drop a model before the Sturms start doing any damage.

CoH 2's infantry combat is about intricate positioning. It's not a simple damage comparison.
22 Dec 2019, 15:05 PM
#31
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 13:25 PMLago


You're adding the 'at every range', and it's not how CoH 2 works.

Squads have variable damage with range. SMG troops do a fuckton close up but very little at range. LMGs do a fuckton at range but actually get worse close up.

Penals and Riflemen are generalists, so they beat long-range specialists (like Grens) at short and mid range, and lose at long range.

Similarly, squads do less damage (often 50% less damage) while moving, so already being in position at the start of the fight is often decisive. Conscripts can beat Sturmpioneers if they're in cover and the Sturmpioneers have to close because they'll drop a model before the Sturms start doing any damage.

CoH 2's infantry combat is about intricate positioning. It's not a simple damage comparison.

Did you not see THE DESIGN DOC that Viper gave. It clearly says.

Grenadiers vs Riflemen

disadvantaged at far
heavily disadvantaged at mid
heavily disadvantaged at near

If you did not understand what that mean at first It mean the devs want rifle men to win at every range.

So before commenting understand the context before trying to school someone.

And for your information,
Penals beat every starting infantry at every range. They beat 4 man sections(with cover it's 50/50) at long and also beat riflemen from short.

Riflemen, Penals, Ranges, Paras, AirBorn Gaurds and anything with g43's have more than 50% accuracy or shorter cooldowns while moving so they are still good at charging in even if they are out of position.

So before you comment know your information proper.
22 Dec 2019, 15:23 PM
#32
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Penals beat every starting infantry at every range. They beat 4 man sections(with cover it's 50/50) at long and also beat riflemen from short.

Riflemen, Penals, Ranges, Paras, AirBorn Gaurds and anything with g43's have more than 50% accuracy or shorter cooldowns while moving so they are still good at charging in even if they are out of position.

So before you comment know your information proper.


What is your source for these claims?
22 Dec 2019, 15:28 PM
#33
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 15:23 PMLago


What is your source for these claims?

Go test it out. Penals beat every one they used to crush pre-patch sections from long and also beat riflemen from close. Basically the both the highest dps units for the their range gets rekt by them.
22 Dec 2019, 16:09 PM
#34
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Go test it out. Penals beat every one they used to crush pre-patch sections from long and also beat riflemen from close. Basically the both the highest dps units for the their range gets rekt by them.


I'm not sure what the point in pitting Penals against Sections is given those factions never face each other, but I ran some tests on Rifles versus Grens.

In a 30 range full cover shootout with the base squad, the score was 4:4 Grens:Riflemen.

In a 30 range full cover shootout with one weapon upgrade (LMG42 vs BAR) the score was 8:0 Grens:Riflemen.

In a 30 range full cover shootout with equal models (4 Riflemen vs 4 Grenadiers) the score was 8:0 Grens:Riflemen.

That suggests to me that Grenadiers are carry infantry like Panzerfusiliers: they're really not that good early on. However, once they get their weapon upgrades and veterancy they punch above their weight at their preferred ranges.
22 Dec 2019, 17:02 PM
#35
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

People say that the HMG42 is to keep short range troops away from your grenadiers, but it doesn’t really work like that.

Possible situations:
Both the hmg42 and grenadier are firing on 2 charging rifles. The grenadier squad is unnecessary as the hmg42 will be able to suppress both squads.

hmg42 and grenadier VS 2 flanking rifles. The MG42 is useless as it is being flanked, and the grenadier looses to the MG42. Even if the MG suppresses one rifle squad by repositioning the other rifle will win VS the grenadier and then kill the hmg42

The only reason I find I buy grenadiers is because I need snares and troops to scout for my MG42s. If pioneers had snares I’d skip T1 every single game and just build hmgs and pioneers
22 Dec 2019, 17:40 PM
#38
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 748 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2019, 19:11 PMLago


It's not 50/50. Grenadiers usually win at long range versus Riflemen.


Rewinding back to the Grenadier vs Riflemen argument here is a quick compilation video vs the two.



note the video is still processing and may take some additional time to get up to 1080p and 4k. I made this quickly and if only focus on stock riflemen and grenadiers.
22 Dec 2019, 20:01 PM
#39
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1001 | Subs: 2

People say that the HMG42 is to keep short range troops away from your grenadiers, but it doesn’t really work like that.

Possible situations:
Both the hmg42 and grenadier are firing on 2 charging rifles. The grenadier squad is unnecessary as the hmg42 will be able to suppress both squads.

hmg42 and grenadier VS 2 flanking rifles. The MG42 is useless as it is being flanked, and the grenadier looses to the MG42. Even if the MG suppresses one rifle squad by repositioning the other rifle will win VS the grenadier and then kill the hmg42

The only reason I find I buy grenadiers is because I need snares and troops to scout for my MG42s. If pioneers had snares I’d skip T1 every single game and just build hmgs and pioneers

The point of the grenadier in the first situation is to provide vision on the two riflemen squads and punish the non suppressed rifle sqiad even if it manages to make it out of the arc. Your mg suppresses one rifle squad. The other rifle squad uses thid time to escape your mgs arc and flank the mg. Your mg continues to fire at the suppressed squad, while your grens pick away at the rifle squad thats trying to close in. By the time the rifle squad closes in, its on maybe 3 models, the other rifle squad is pinned, and your mg42 is refacing to suppress the new rifle squad. Its a landslide win for you, the ost player.

With no grenadier in this situation, your mg suppresses one rifle squad then gets flanked by the other. A landslide win for your opponent.

In the second example, you backpedal your mg. Your opponent now either focuses the mg, having to fire at it while on the move, or focuses the gren squad. If they focus the mg, they have 2 squad doing moving DPS against your 1 squad doing stationary DPS. Not exactly a formula for a won engagement, but a good trade considering that you misplayed/got outplayed. If they focus your grens, then your mg sets up at youre bacj to yiur first example, which I establishes usually results in a landslide victory for you.
22 Dec 2019, 20:58 PM
#40
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789


The point of the grenadier in the first situation is to provide vision on the two riflemen squads and punish the non suppressed rifle sqiad even if it manages to make it out of the arc. Your mg suppresses one rifle squad. The other rifle squad uses thid time to escape your mgs arc and flank the mg. Your mg continues to fire at the suppressed squad, while your grens pick away at the rifle squad thats trying to close in. By the time the rifle squad closes in, its on maybe 3 models, the other rifle squad is pinned, and your mg42 is refacing to suppress the new rifle squad. Its a landslide win for you, the ost player.

With no grenadier in this situation, your mg suppresses one rifle squad then gets flanked by the other. A landslide win for your opponent.

In the second example, you backpedal your mg. Your opponent now either focuses the mg, having to fire at it while on the move, or focuses the gren squad. If they focus the mg, they have 2 squad doing moving DPS against your 1 squad doing stationary DPS. Not exactly a formula for a won engagement, but a good trade considering that you misplayed/got outplayed. If they focus your grens, then your mg sets up at youre bacj to yiur first example, which I establishes usually results in a landslide victory for you.



I concede.

Good point.
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