General Observations:
Regarding total tech costs:
All factions have relatively similar full tech fuel unlock costs except ostheer (290 ostheer vs 240 sov, 255 USF and 220 OKW). This pretty clearly shows that ostheer has to choose either t3 or t4, not competitive to choose both. All other factions have similar total teching costs that all can afford to fully tech in the course of a match. Mp wise, Sovs have extremely heavy mp costs, much greater than ostheer which I'd say is unfair. USF costs are a bit hard to directly compare, but if we take the LT/Capt as a rifle squad with bars/zooks and adjust the cost accordingly then USF mp teching cost is negligible, even pushing into surplus territory if both the combat officers are bought!
Regarding medium armor:
The medium armor thresholds are not so balanced but this is somewhat understandable due to unit differences. (ost 170 or 215, sov 220, usf 205, okw 165).One glaring outlier is ost t3 cost vs sov t4 cost. The differential is 50 fuel! I shall elaborate more below in the specific matchups. Please do keep in mind that while OKW teching is cheaper, their vehicles etc are much more expensive e.g. OKW pz4 costs 135 fuel but due to 66% fuel income they have to wait for the time required to save 202.5 fuel i.e. assuming equal territory control, their allied opponent will have saved up 202.5 fuel by the time they have saved 135 fuel.
Regarding artillery:
Ostheer requires a min. 215 fuel investment to access arty but excludes t3. Conversely, going t3 makes arty prohibitively expensive, requiring a further investment of 120 fuel! Other factions get access to their arty more-or-less by normal teching. USF suffers from not having any core arty apart from the major himself (NOT referring to HMC here) which is severely underwhelming. Access-wise though, the other 3 factions have their access, such as it is, at competitive prices.
Regarding allied vs axis:
The allied factions can benefit tremendously by skipping out on grenades/racks, as they form a significant portion of the teching cost (50 sov, 35 USF); particularly in quickly accessing medium armor. However, the tradeoff for sov is increased mp tech costs. Which is more valuable? 250 mp or 50 fuel? Its harder to compare for USF as their 'free' officers drastically cut their mp costs for teching but add to their popcap, so its hard to compare. They keyword here is CAN. Not saying its a definite cause of imbalance, just pointing out a disparity.
Ost vs Sov
Ost has two advantages, one quite big: in being able to outproduce sovs in super-early game (340 mp vs 230 mp leftover after building first building) AND (this is the big one) ost can access P4 before sovs can access equivalents (170 fuel ost vs 220 fuel sov which translates to 2+ mins).
That said, there are two particular areas where soviets can achieve a huge advantage. First: Ost going this route (T3) makes it prohibitively expensive to access artillery effectively leaving them with the mortar only. Second, sov T2 counters everything in Ost T2 at equal skill and sov T3 is very easily accessible compared to Ost T3 (170 vs 130). With the recent buffs to M5 and Su76, this places at sov players disposal 2 units very capable of countering infantry based AT gun and shrecks, which are the t70 and su76 (barrage) and have no vehicle counter of their own, which synergizes extremely well with M5 quad. If sov player is skilled enough to forgoe nades, the gap widens more. The matchup favours sov in mid game, but IF both players kept income levels similar, then favours ost late game.
Ost going T4 against soviets is also unviable as there is a 45 fuel difference plus panthers themselves cost 175 fuel. Again, leaving sov with a huge advantage (i.e. no opposing AT vehicle) midgame (unless he forgoes any units from T3). Definite exploit potential.
Ost vs USF
In this matchup USF has early game advantage by being able to access stuarts early whereas ost has no comparable light armor. However, ost retains its mid-late and late game advantage. Particularly problematic is that Ost has access to medium armor much earlier than USF (170 fu vs 205 fu), which gap grows wider if USF gets a light vehicle, as osts light vehicles are (a) not critical to ost mid-game unlike USF and (b) cheaper than USF light vehicles. Id say USF has the disadvantage here, somewhat. Perhaps greater still if ost player is able to lockdown USF rifles in super-early game but as I don't have win-rates and the meta hasn't stabilized yet for MOST players I'd say its pointless to speculate.
OKW vs Soviet
OKW has super-cheap teching compared to sov, particularly in accessing medium tanks (160 fu vs 220 fu). However, as the price of the units fuel wise (on account of OKW fuel penalty) is much higher, the matchup seems structured so that, with equal skill and equal incomes, both factions can access their first medium tank at around about the same time. E.g. OKW going p4 = 160 + 135*1.5 = 362.5; for Sov going t34/85 = 220 + 130 = 350 so the matchup revolves more on skill. OKW has puma to counter sov t3 and both have similar (adjusted) costs e.g. 75 fu for sov su76, 50*1.5 = 75 fu for OKW.
OKW vs USF
Again, similar matchup with regards to tech prices due to OKW unit costs, see above. USF has slight advantage in that it has a cheaper medium armor threshold compared to Sov (205 fu vs 220 fu for Sov). I am concerned with how USF can counter an okw p4 as their stock sherman can neither outfight it nor outnumber it.
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Thread: Teching analysis and faction comparison re July 21 patch17 Jul 2015, 12:58 PM
In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Teching analysis and faction comparison re July 21 patch17 Jul 2015, 12:57 PM
So I read this thread (http://www.coh2.org/topic/36670/new-incoming-teching-costs.) and thought up my response but it sort of took a life of its own so I thought it merited its own thread: Below I've assembled a list of the fuel amounts required to tech up to a particular tech tier. NB: I've made some underlying assumptions which are asterisked below. This whole thing also implicitly relies on a teching order which I'm assuming is the one the devs intended. GREEN is threshold for accessing light armor. Here when I say light armor Im referring to early game vehicles which are able to tangle with AT guns reasonably well 1 on 1 as well as fend off infantry in the early-mid game i.e. a true light tank. RED is threshold for accessing medium armor. Clarification: This refers exclusively to medium tanks. PURPLE is threshold needed for fully teching. Comments on values: These values represent the cumulative amount of fuel invested into teching to access particular tech thresholds. They do not take into account any units built, and purely represent the fuel gates which bar access to advanced vehicles/infantry which need to be invested to access them. Rush strats are not accounted for. As such, they are useful as a tech pace guide. Negative values indicate a surplus and the negative mp values are best used to compare faction early game potential. Wehrmacht Intended: T1>T2>T3 or T4 Starting resources: 420 mp, 20 fu T1: 80 mp, 10 fu (Cumulative required = -340 mp, -10 fu) BP1: 100 mp, 40 fu T2: 200 mp, 20 fu (Cumulative required = -40 mp, 50 fu) BP2: 100 mp, 45 fu T3: 260 mp, 75 fu (Cumulative required = 320 mp, 170 fu) BP3: 100 mp, 45 fu T4: 260 mp, 75 fu (Cumulative required= 580 mp, 290 fu; 420 mp, 215 fu if t3 skip) Soviets Intended: T1 or T2>Nades if required>T3>T4 Starting resources: 390 mp, 50 fu Grenades: 125 mp, 25 fu AT grenades: 125 mp, 25 fu T1: 160 mp, 40 fu (Cumulative required = -230 mp, -10 fu) T2: 160 mp, 50 fu (Cumulative required = -230 mp, 0 fu) T3: 240 mp, 80 fu (Cumulative required = 260 mp, 130 fu*; 420mp, 180 fu if both T1+T2) T4: 240 mp, 90 fu (Cumulative required = 500 mp, 220 fu*; 660 mp, 260 fu if all tiers) USF Intended: Ndes+racks> T1 or T2>T3** Starting resources: 400 mp, 15 fu Racks: 150 mp, 15 fu Grenades: 150 mp, 25 fu T1: 200 mp, 50 fu (Cumulative required = -180 mp*** 75 fu**) T2: 200 mp, 60 fu (Cumulative required = -180 mp*** 85 fu**) T3: 240 mp, 120 fu (Cumulative required = 60 mp*** 205 fu**, T2 assumed; -20 mp*** 255 fu for all) OKW Intended: T1 or T2>T3 Starting resources: 240 mp, 40 fu T1: 200 mp, 40 fu (Cumulative required = -40 mp, 0 fu) T2: 200 mp, 40 fu (Cumulative required = -40 mp, 0 fu) T3: 200 mp, 120 fu*** (Cumulative required = 160 mp, 160 fu****, 360 mp, 220 fu**** for all tiers) *Assuming sov T2; -10 for T1. Nade costs not added to sov t1 or t2 as I'm thinking sov player will build building before nade. **Assuming nades and racks. These costs added to LT/Capt cost as I'm assuming that usf player will tech at least nades before LT/Capt. ***Subtracted 280 mp from these costs as USF gets a combat capable squad equivalent to rifles + bar (LT) or rifles + zooks. Major mp cost not subtracted as he is not combat capable. For all tier version, subtracted 560 mp (LT & Capt). To adjust, add 280 mp (560 mp for all tier option) ****Adjusted due to OKW fuel penalty. Starting tier not affected due to starting 40 fuel. Source of values:http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog/page6 In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Crawling Penal Satchel Charge Party Patrol3 May 2015, 20:24 PM
Agreed, all infantry should see a reduction in grenade range when suppressed. Maybe make it a flat 7 (or other number, plz suggest) so that a squad getting suppressed from close range (I.e just came around a shotblocker and got suppressed etc) can counter the mg but preventing those guys from long range crawling in and ruining your day? Reason I suggest a flat change is cause otherwise riflenades (esp from vet grens) would still be able to do it cause of their incredibly long range. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: 2v2 replay for call in meta discussion.28 Apr 2015, 09:29 AM
... In: Replays |
Thread: Early game for Ost27 Apr 2015, 20:09 PM
Slightly off topic here: I feel like rather a lot of imbalances/exploits exist between the vanilla and new factions tbh. I mean what's okw supposed to counter soviet sniper spam with? Or USF to do against wehr sniper? Or penal bomb vs okw structures? USF teching vs ost teching? (NOT counting doctrines here except soviet cause they're designed to use doctrines to cover stock weaknesses) In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Early game for Ost27 Apr 2015, 14:45 PM
Any word from the devs/Cynthia on this? Can you guys at least tell if you've read this thread? In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Early game for Ost25 Apr 2015, 20:10 PM
edit: wrong thread, correct post below
Lol I keep imagining the pz3 having the same lines as the hotchkiss from coh1. It'd be epic. Maybe use the ostruppen voice actor. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Suggestion: heavy weapon upgrades should affect mobility25 Apr 2015, 18:50 PM
The real problem with ost is teching and the über effectiveness of callins plus weak soviet stock units. This thread has a good analysis on the tech issue. http://www.coh2.org/topic/33612/early-game-for-ost/page/3#post_id322164 In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Suggestion: heavy weapon upgrades should affect mobility25 Apr 2015, 17:41 PM
In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Suggestion: heavy weapon upgrades should affect mobility25 Apr 2015, 17:08 PM
Hi all, So as the title says: how about a very slight decrease in movement speed for infantry carrying heavy weapons like lmg/ptrs/shreck. The idea is to make long range blobs slightly vulnerable to mortar/arty fire as well as differentiate these upgrades from slightly less effective but more mobile upgrades eg g43, ppsh, bars etc. What say you all? In: COH2 Gameplay |
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