Profile of Hambone

The problem with team games is that the panther/tiger have massive HP pools. While this is, arguably, somewhat balanced for 1v1 it does not scale well with the available counters.

Other forum posts claim that soviets deserve to lose if they let Germany build multiple panthers. In reality it only takes the first panther/tiger from each player to start seeing these effects.

In a 3v3 or 4v4 the first set of panthers/tigers that roll out have already reached critical mass. 3-4 panthers are very fast, have large hp pools, can blitz, smoke, and do substantial infantry damage with their buffed hull MG's.

Zis AT guns break down in this scenario as a substantial number of Zis guns are needed to chew through the hp pool of multiple panthers. If you do have enough AT guns they are incredibly vulnerable to off-maps. Two AT guns may kill one engine-damaged panther in 1v1, but in 3v3/4v4 against 3-4 panthers the required 6-8 Zis guns are just instantly off-mapped by multiple players.

If T34's arrive they may get one initial ram off to a panther's front, but then will be unable to maneuver due to vehicle congestion. They are unable to damage panther/tigers and will get volley'ed as fast as they can arrive on the scene.

Multiple SU-85's can hold the panther tide back, but possess no ability to actually chase and finish off any panther's that probe and get damaged. Remember, target weak point and blitz are only for the ubermensch! Since Su-85's cannot actively diminish the panther ranks nor relocate in a reasonable amount of time, it is a losing proposition. Su-85's have no tools to punish and score panther kills; they will die once more panthers are built or they make any mistake. Any mistake at all, don't forget that the panther has blitz, smoke, high hp, and high penetration, all on one of the fastest tanks in the game. It is purpose built to kill SU-85's.

tl:dr

Nerf panther/tiger hull mg gun, reduce hp pool on panther/tiger, engine damage cancels blitzkrieg and/or temporary engine damage when blitz is completed.

German end game tanks need to be balanced via armor and armament, just like soviet tanks, massive HP pools simply don't scale.

Hmm, a mortar that has really long range can wipe out units, has huge splash damage and can any hit any target accurately with a precision strike.

Looks like we need to get rid of precision strike and get rid of the the mortars high damage output.

Relic : let's just make it more expensive.

everyone's reaction: ........

Relic tries to nerf it, but they still did not fix the problem. It's an rng monster, it sometimes insta wipes squads or sometimes it just misses completely. Whatever they were doing is still not helping, they could fix it, but they just refuse to remove the most stupidest shit they put into the game.

Just to iterate some things here...

The 400 manpower 120cm mortar and 240 manpower 82cm have the exact same precision strike in terms of damage. Both do 80 points of damage. The 120mm strike has slightly longer range which is usually not relevant (range 80 vs range 100). The fabled 120mm precision strike is essentially identical to the 82cm precision strike, on a unit half the cost.

The 120mm mortar does have solid range, but one must keep in mind that because scatter scales due to distance it simply cannot be used effectively at long range. If players want to score consistent hits with mortars they must be within roughly one screen length of distance whether the mortar is 8cm, 8.2cm, or 120cm. Any time you see a replay of 120mm mortars owning face it is almost a certainty that they are doing so at very close ranges.

Now Jinseual. You have noted the 120mm mortar's high damage output. Are you aware that a 120mm mortar does 6.14 dps while a barraging vet0 German 8cm mortar does 18.82 dps? Are you even aware that the German mortar has three times the DPS? Don't even ask what dps an elite troops insta-vet 3 german mortar puts out... The reality, and the numbers, show that while a lucky 120mm hit is potent this is mostly due to perception and smaller german squad sizes. The 120mm mortar fires extremely slowly and its ability to influence a game is inconsistent for its cost.

Others have noted that the 120mm is uncounterable. Is this really accurate? It has a weapon crew like any other. A single pgren squad or even pioneers will simply run it over. The german mortar halftrack is a 100% hard counter with incendiary barrage nearly a guaranteed squad wipe. Rifle grenades can insta gib the crew as easily as a maxim. A scout car will force it off as easily as an 82cm mortar. The german mortar will handily beat it until the 120mm mortar gets vet 1 and manually uses precision strike, the exact same ability as the 82cm mortar. So what is making it uncounterable?

I'm all for the standard CoH2 range-scaling scatter being applied to rifle grenades. Perfect shots near minimum range, but some deviation at max range.

The chance to not land a guaranteed perfect hit at max range will do a lot. It will let the german player decide to take the shot now or get a wee bit closer if able. It will be less punishing for the soviet player when cover behavior makes units clump. It will ultimately make rifle grenades less guaranteed and less munition efficient, all with minimal impact on rifle grenade performance versus buildings.

I think skilled german players would find this a more reasonable tradeoff to the flat out nerf it is probably destined to receive.