Awesome, thanks for the votes and replies. I pretty much agree with everyone.
Unit type needs to be considered as Boc120, Gokkel and MrcoR said and faction type too as Katitof pointed out.
4 Sturmpioneers? Could it... Could it work?
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Hey, this vote's to see what most people think spam is. I've seen players accuse other players of spam because they had 3 of one unit type. To me spam is at least 5 at the same time but I see a lot of people get annoyed by 3/4 conscripts or Volks. 2 snipers to me is also not spam, it's a sniper strat.
It seems the word spam has been spammed and lost all meaning. I just saw a thread with the phrase "Tiger spam"... I mean, it's impossible to get > 4 Tigers (unless 4+ 1 decrewed)
So here's the vote. What number constitutes spam? I think it's important to have a common understanding of the word for forum discussions. If someone says "he spammed Pumas! What should I do?" and in reality there were only 3 in the whole game and only ever 2 at once, it becomes difficult to answer his question. The number matters, so what is the spam number? Spamber...
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Agreed. I'd be glad to buy fun new content.
Relic... Y u no take my money?  |
It should have a cost increase definitely. But the animation takes longer than a standard grenade, which can also wipe full squads pretty regularly. |
The drawback of MGs is immobility (compared to normal infantry squads), no possibility for weapon upgrades (which, on a whole, are very arguably too powerful in their current state - except maybe the PPSh), no grenades, vulnerability to indirect fire, vulnerability to flanking/green cover (MGs can't suppress squads in green cover - it takes like 2 full minutes of shooting), lack of AT utility (lowered access to AT nades/fausts) etc etc
There are plenty of drawbacks to spamming MGs - especially in 1v1, which is why you never really see top players spamming maxims or MG42s (maybe like 15 patches ago when the MG42 was instant suppress/crazy OP). The issue primarily presents itself in team games where your ally(ies) can cover the weaknesses of spamming Maxims/MG42s.
I don't think removing the ability to cap would really solve anything. MGs would become border-line extinct in 1v1s, and team games would largely remain the same - you'd just let your ally cap while you suppress everything. Lowering the durability of Soviet weapon team squads is a band-aid fix at best, especially considering they'd need to be significantly buffed to compensate for the reduced durability (see the screenshot of me/PQ above).
In my opinion the real issue, if you could call it an issue at all, lies within the Soviet tech system. Since you're forced, in almost every case, to pick two of your four tiers of tech - you always lack a variety of options - which inherently leads to more "spamming" of the options that you do actually have available to use. Personally I'm fine with this tech system, I don't think there is anything inherently "wrong" with a faction that is somewhat designed around "spammy" gameplay. I can still sympathize with those that find it to be boring to play with/against.
Overall I'd much rather see Relic re-work the Soviet tech system rather than try to put a band-aid over Soviet weapon teams. Either they'll be glass cannons (4 men, very powerful weapon stats) or durable (6 men, weaker weapon stats) but either way they'll be spammed because of the limitations present in the current Soviet tech structure.
Might edit this later, was getting my thoughts down quickly before dinner.
Hmmm, really a lot of good points, thanks for the well-thought out reply!
Yes, I imagine in team games it wouldn't have as much of an effect to reduce MG capping ability. Still, I think it would reduce it a little. But you're right it would have a large effect in 1v1. Do you really think MGs would become extinct? Soviets still have conscripts/2CP call-ins to mix in with the MGs for more of a balanced army.
I'm not arguing for a reduction in squad size. If it happened, yes, the squad members should be buffed. Perhaps they should reduce squad size to make snipers a ore viable option for Ost. But definitely improve MG sqaud stats. Not power, just durability.
But I think I agree with you on the Soviet tier design. The cost of 40 or 50 after you've already spent 40 or 50 is too much. So as you said, players are forced to build even more units from that tier. I think for t3t4 is should stay the same though. A choice should be made that has drawbacks. Ostheer also has to make a T3/T4 choice.
Maybe after building one of the tiers, the other tier could drop in price? |
Why shouldn't they? Those kind of artificial limitations are very immersion breaking, just like snipers not being able to board transports. Besides, it's a risky move and I would be happy to catch a lone capping maxim since it's much easier prey than supported one in building for an example.
So you want snipers to be able to garrison vehicles again? I think that's very sad. It was one of the worst features of this game.
To answer your question, they shouldn't because when they can, the play has the option to build almost exclusively one unit. One fun thing about CoH is that spamming comes with severe drawbacks usually. The drawbacks of spamming Maxims re not sever enough to stop people doing it and playing against Maxim spam is borrrrrrringgggg. Fun > "immersion".
You'll be lucky to catch a maxim capping alone that doesn't have another maxim behind it. Check ImperialDanes Jellydonut shoutcast for an example. |
Hi,
I agree US has a harder time of things after the early game. But still, early game they have an advantage. Perhaps there are ways to exploit the early game advantage to help late game.
1. Tank traps:
After pushing off the Axis, start laying lines and lines of tank traps in such a way that enemy tanks will be forced to expose themselves to a flank. (build a second Rear Echelon)
2. Wire:
Lay wire behind the tank traps so vehicles can't crush it. Set up defensive positions / sandbags behind these lines. (build a second Rear Echelon)
3. Get an early fuel cache. Early on Rifles will kill off more enemy MP than they will lose. Use this discrepancy to buy a cache or two. Save for Jacksons.
4. Jacksons: Bitch-slap tank snipers. Keep them way back behind your units. Your aim should be for them to not even take one hit. You don't need to flank with them to get to rear armour. Just sit back sniping. I recommend asking a friend to do a mock 1v1 with you so you can practice getting a feel for their range. They can hit without being hit back.
So, if you've had 75% map control, you'll have a 25%+ fuel advantage + 33% default fuel advantage. You should be able to field almost 3 Jacksons for each KT even when it's 50-50. (260 OKW fuel = 350 regular fuel by default) With a large map advantage, you should be able to get 4. (in terms of fuel, not MP)
About the pop-cap thing, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you explain? Axis units have very similar popcap to Ami units and Amis even have the ability to reduce the pop-cap of their vehicles, while just 1 Sturmpio squad is almost 10% of an OKW's P-cap. |
Hey,
Have you tried talking to your teammates more? Like, when things get bad and you feel they might drop, if you tell them your plan or tell them that the enemy is weak because A, B, C, they might stay longer.
They've probably had a lot of experience losing after losing certain key units. They may feel that comebacks aren't possible. So if you reassure them and keep talking to them all game, asking them what they plan to do and telling them what they plan to do, you may find they are less likely to drop.
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In 1v1's there is room for flanking, outmanoeuvring and outplaying your opponent. Teams games more than anything are just which teams blob and camp the fuel points, and them able to call in the most tanks.
If team game maps were actually good and properly designed, team games would be much better. For example Moscow Outskirts or Duclair from Coh1 work very well because they are properly sized. They are big enough to prevent camping and allow room for flanking and outplay, but the rectangular nature means the retreat timing and distance isn't too punishing.
This! +1000.
It's the maps more than anything that spoil the game. Semoisky... Why Relic, why!? Why not Duclair??? Why give us a tiny choke point right outside our base, why!?
A lot of the fun of CoH comes from sneaking into a great position (True sight really ads to the fun in coh2) then attacking behind support weapons for a good flank.
Unfortunately, most of what I see now is a slug fest. Face to face hammering from the front. Not much opportunity to sneak around and get behind in a clever way. Either slug it out toe-to-toe blob v blob or camp and slug it out with indirect fire vs indirect fire.
Only a few maps offer an opportunity for dynamic play. I really think that bigger, wider maps would reduce the impact some of the "OP" units have on the game and thus reduce that OP feeling. |
Well, tbh, I shouldn't be throwing stones out of my glass house... I'll get off my high horse.
I'd say if you've tried to help him before and your help has been ignored, then just ignore them in future.
I kinda think you're right. With time as he learns the game better, he'll see that these issues are not actually issues or not actually so bad.
It's just there's already enough people like katitof, frikadelle...
To OP:
The best advice I can give you is to play the opposite armies. You'll learn a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of Ostheer when you see other players using them against you. Really, it's very useful! |