LuL wut. Do you know how many REAR, close range shots it takes for a ZiS to even think about doing anything to a tiger ace? Or how many shots a Pak will miss on a t70 right in front of it? Or how they get 2 shotted by practically every tank?
watching an at gun miss a light vehicle more than once is painful. I'm fine with the chance of miss on the first shot, but if the light vehicle sticks around, it shouldn't be so lucky the second time. If there were a way to implement a huge accuracy bonus against the same light target, after every time the gun misses, that would work for me. |
I hope they don't revert the manpower change because of the doors it opens. If it truly favors soviets at the moment though, maybe scout cars should be bumped up to 100 mp, and molotov upgrade to 200 or 250 mp.
That would keep builds flexible but still force the soviet player to make some trade-offs.
I'd also like conscripts as well as grens to cost 250 or 260 manpower, just to reduce the reliance on 5 con, or 5 gren builds.
People use 222's effectively against me all the time. That could just be that i'm not an amazing player, but as an m3 deterrent they make sense. They also empty buildings pretty damn fast. Russia can't camp with a 222 blasting at him unless the unit in question is a guard. In that case, at least scout car has effectively managed to draw out guards, making all future pgrens more effective. Scout car will be handy to help counter the inevitable soviet sniper response to that as well. In the mean-time it can stay back and defend infantry from the flamer m3.
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T70s were borderline OP without any commander to boot. Greeb has a significant problem with identifying what early, mid and late game are. T70 are a Early-Mid game unit that has shocking consequences if not dealt with immediately. It can also pay for itself over and over if produced late game.
Let me ask if Shrecks aren't supposed to be a hard counter to T70's and Pak's are just circle strafed do you actually think it's fair that Osteer should group all there units together just to fend off such a cheap unit? Pak + PG Vs T70, T70 backs off and goes off to slaughter anything not were it's just been. Soviet gains regardless.
If the t70 comes out at 7:30 or 8:00, I'm pretty sure russia has had to forego a lot, possibly at-nades and molotovs in order to get there(and probably shocks in favor of guards). I could be wrong about this, perhaps there's a very viable fast t70 strat that comes out after "dominating" with molotovs, but basically you have to pick up an extra 25 fuel by that mark. When I see that play-style, the t70 pops out at about 10, followed by a second one when it can be afforded, and the ostheer tank follows at 12, 13 or never(which only happens when the russian player has completely dominated)
When I do a fast t70 I have to count on guards to support against scout cars or flame-halfs, as my only vehicle counter until the t70 arrives. I absolutely do not dispute that when it does arrive, it wreaks some havoc. If I'm having a hard time finding something to kill in the first minute though, because the opponent is being cagey, or is consolidating with a pak and shreks, I get really nervous. I know my window is closing... P4 to appear by the 10 minute mark. (and just to beat a dead horse, stug could be out by the 9 minute mark) So yes, I do "gain regardless", in recovering some map control which I started hemorrhaging. But that is about to start swinging back the other way.
If you aren't going heavy t2, and are teching to t3, you may not even need shreks or at guns depending on how far off your tanks are, but if you do have them, you don't have to worry about the rest of the map, you just have to keep your most significant resources coming in so that you can pop that tank. So defend the fuel and the cutoff. Then bring out your tank.
The fact that Ostheer t-1 + t-2 can mitigate and even counter a tier-3 fast t70 effectively as it stands, seems right to me.
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2 problems with retreat, is that if it is a long way, T70 kills the fleeing unit and potentially forces shrek drop. Another is that if a single unit can reliably force away PG's then how can I expect to hold the field?
If grens do ambush they cannot kill the T70, they can only injure it for munitions and manpower bleed.
What if I am not near a house, what do I garrison? Do you want to restrict the German to remain near houses?
Ost forces inf to keep distance, which is what it is supposed to do. T70 has another role, not that of ost. Hit hard and hit fast, then get out of their fast.
In addition, what other early counters do Germans have to T70?
Mines- Too expensive must sacrifice other upgrades or fausts, not guaranteed kill
222- too little health now
Paks- miss frequently, although they often only get 1 shot off anyway
P4- comes out too late, what happens if German cannot get P4?
Stug- can actually be circle strafed by T70, German must give up AI capabilities, comes out latter
PG-large munition cost upgrade, what if I don't have it?, huge mp bleed, lower AI capabilities
I can think of no others. If you won't make PG's better against the T70, the pak must be more reliable. The pak in vCOH could always force away the armored car if it could fire at range. Right now the pak cannot reliable push back a t70, so I must rely on PG's.
PG's should stop T70's because that is what they are designed to do. Although PG's have strong AT capabilities they get riskier to use as game progresses as soviets unlock better AI tanks that can one shot squads. If they cannot be used early game to reliably counter light tanks and build up vet to deal with heavier tanks, there is a problem. If you are facing PG's with shreks you should have map control because he gave up AI capabilities and you should then invest in a T34.
T70 was not useless before soviet industry, it will not be after. You are not using it correctly if you think it was useless before soviet industry. Soviet industry allowed the exploitation of a broken unit in a more broken manner.
pak and zis should be more reliable against light vehicles. It's bad when they miss, its really bad when they miss twice. Maybe some sort of modifier that kicks in after a miss if they shoot at the same light vehicle twice. Second shot get a greatly improved accuracy. Of course that change does nothing for paks that may only get to get in one shot against a t70.
I might have missed the comment that said t70 was useless before the industry ability. I think the concern is that it could be made too sketchy in value for the risk if it is made less effective at killing infantry. |
Forcing ostheer to build stugs to counter t70s means ostheer is set back on fuel when su 85s come rolling. Why not make the p4 cost 200 fuel to encourage ostheer to build more tigers to counter su 85s?
This is the problem I have with the disparity between the Soviets and ostheer. 700+mp and 120 muntions and a hope is needed to just scare away a t70. Why doesn't ostheer also have light armor, instead of having to overmatch a cheap and early to field wtf kill machine. With expensive mines, forced purchase of 2 shreks, expensive pak (compared to vcoh, low effectiveness and long build time, low survivability) taking on one t70 is a challenge, but 2 or 3 takes the bulk of your army to deal with, barring you having tanks.
First, do you mean set back on fuel when t34s start rolling?...cuz the t70 precludes the su85.
My point is that t70 doesn't even force the "oh shit" choice of a stug, presently. I know the ostheer gets more bang for his buck if he gets the p4, but if he were getting so owned on the field and losing so many units, it would be worth it for him to prevent that and get a stug, which will also effectively combat the t34 that rolls out a minute to a minute and a half later. Apparently things just aren't that dire.
Actually, I think that if they costed up the p4 by 10, they could also relent on some of the ant-tank power they gave the t34 a couple patches ago.
So that would be an increase of 10 fuel for the p4, a decrease in t70 anti-infantry effectiveness(as well as sk222s), and a decrease in t34 anti-tank effectiveness. Sounds fair to me.
You're also suggesting that 700 manpower and 120 muni is burned to combat this vehicle. Its hardly burned. Its invested, and it allows you to hold your fuel and get out your hard counter. Both units function plenty well into the late game. |
Why not have the resource cut-off take place instantly upon pressing the Tiger Ace button, but have the Ace itself only actually reach the battlefield within a certain amount of time (3-5 minutes?) That way it would actually cost something up-front to a certain degree. Perhaps there could be, as you suggested, a warning to the Soviet player at the same time.
Can't say I've had much experience with the TA though, haven't seen it ingame yet.
Cool Idea! that was my idea too, yesterday, so I guess it was your idea first. 3-5 will almost never be worth it though, I think 2 is pushing it. |
I completely disagree. And every point I raised already addresses the ones you raise as rebuttals.
A) For 120 Muni for Shreks, a T70 better fuck off right away. Does it currently? No, it just moves in and out exploiting superior range, the Shrek fire cycle and LoS while sniping MP bleed.
B) An uograde to make Pgrens less vulnerable to vehicles? Oh my lols. What a beautiful piece of nonsense reverse logic. It doesnt make the PGrens any less vulnerable, nor is it intended thqt way lol. Its intended to force armor the fuck away, and it does so for 120 muni and loss in AI.
C) Kiting infantry with vehicles one of the best mechanics? All my lols. That must be why Relic has pproposed changing scatter to reduce AI efficacy on the move, eh? Again, wonderful piece of nonsense reverse logic.
D) Guard PTRS has more range. There goes your theory on that.
E) Buy Elite? Yeah, gj man. What an argument.
Contrived and ridiculous arguments designed to protect your priviledge.
Try playing some Ost dude, your bias is showing.
Pgrens aren't a hard counter to t70's, which would be a problem if there weren't reasonable hard counters that come within 1 to 2 minutes, or if pgrens with shreks served no good role, but they do. Pgrens backing up a pack will make a t70 back off, and the pgrens will effectively protect the pak from being circle straffed by 1 or 2 of them. If you are going heavy t2, ostheer has potentially 4 soft-counters to t70's. Fausts, shreks, paks and Scout cars(Ive seen two employed quite effectively-though that's a hell of an investment). Even one can do the job if it catches a slightly injured t70 from the back, when it is distracted by anything, or if you did get in with a faust.
I do know that you believe that if you're a good player you don't get fausted, but i've seen plenty of games where the good players do get fausted. You have to neglect a lot of the shit going on if you're going to baby-sit every single half-second of your t70.
That all said, I don't love the idea of the suggested change at all, but I don't know how disastrous it would be. We'd have to see. I think that if you want to nerf t70's shock-value though, maybe you should bump back the p4 another 10 fuel to help suggest strongly to the ostheer player that he should build the stug as a counter, not just chill and wait for a p4 or oswind a minute down the line |
just ran into the tiger ace again,
after a long-fought very tight game that might have been leaning in the ostheer players favor.
When tiger ace pops out in a tight game, it basically ends it. My new solution would be to force the ostheer player to call it in a minute or more before it arrives, cutting income off before the unit hits, and making the decision not so obvious as to its appropriateness in a given situation..
if that were done I would be fine with command points as they stand.
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i'd probably be in favor of increasing the T-70's manpower cost myself. 155 is very low for a unit that has great mobility, firepower and is immune to small arms and virtually immune to fausts unless it steps on a mine. It's certainly a powerful unit, and the scatter change seems a good idea to me; few things are more frustrating than having your infantry chased halfway to base by a moving unit you have difficulty countering. I'd put it at 210-220 MP myself. Increasing fuel cost seems a bit redundant after that, not to mention it's useless against anything not on legs or a HT.
But then again, it's merely Soviet Industry that makes the unit crazy OP. By itself, the T-70 is hardly invincible as VonIvan has pointed out, and if you can stem the T-70/T-34 tide the German player has the advantage of having a T3 building Soviets will have more difficulty countering. It has a window of opportunity during which it rules supreme, but if the game is anywhere near close the Ostheer player should have a Panzer ready within 2 minutes at most, and with proper preparation it's very possible to hold off the thing.
And ostheer would have a counter at least a minute earlier if anybody ever thought they needed one bad enough, in the stug. But everybody waits...pressure must not be making them sweat too much |
"Units =/= depth. They can add all the new units and commanders and funny abilites they like, but it doesn't create depth.
For depth, you need multiple strategic options. Because all the strategic options in CoH2 are locked behind commanders, there's a huge wealth of options that are denied to the player at any one time. "
That's true, and it would be nice if there were more in-game tech options. I don't think that means there's a problem with adding content in commanders though, if they can continue to be balanced with the rest of the game, and if nothing ever becomes a crap-shoot of who brought the right commanders to deal with the other guy's selection of commanders. I do feel that we've hit the limit on how many commanders we can keep track of.
And while coh may have had a whole lot of options,the viable strategies in what was considered to be the most balanced incarnation of the game didn't seem that varied when I watched the tournaments. Most of the units got left out, or were used in-spite of being less optimal than other options. There were a lot of m8's and snipers and rifles with bars, some nade play, jeeps?, at guns, m10s(or the hellcat) and Shermans.
Granted, germans seemed to have a hundred different ways to play.
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