I find it interesting that people say it's no skill to A move into an mg and yet, nobody comments on how little skill it takes to plop down an mg and point it somewhere.
I say, maybe a slight increase in far range accuracy would be ok or a slight buff to traverse speed, other than that, it's fine. When I play allies I always try to grab an mg42 if one drops because that's how good it is. |
Hey Tensai,
I was curious about the forumla you use to compute the suppression per burst graph on the heavy machine guns.
I was looking at the MG42 suppresion at near range and I'm getting different values in my calculations, here is what I'm doing:
(1.4+1.75)/2 = 1.575 This is the average burst duration
1.575 * 1.5 = 2.3625 Multiplying by the near burst duration multiplier
16 * 2.3625 = 37.8 number of shots per burst
37.8 * .012 = .4536 suppresion per burst
On your graph however, it's at .3755, what am I missing in the calculation? Or is there an error? |
shreks reload is 8.5, bazooka is 5.5. zooks shoot ~35% faster
shrek dps = 14.12
zook dps= 14.55
wether it be zook or shrek, i always fire the first shot, move forward in case the vehicle tries to escape, count to 5 or 8, and order another attack to try and get 2 volleys off before the enemy vehicle gets out of range.
i mean, you cant expect the zook to actually kill heavies, youre gonna have to rely on heavier AT like jacksons or p47s to do the vast majority of the damage.
Technically reloads are 7.75 for schrecks and 5.75 for zooks, while "total shot time including reload" is 8.5 and 6.5 respectively.
Which gives 14.12 dps for schrecks and 12.3 dps for zooks.
Those are the numbers I was using. 5.75/7.75, hence ~25% faster. I don't expect zooks to kill heavies, but I expect them to at least reliably pen from the rear, which they do not. But like I said before, I don't think merely increasing pen is the right way to go, because then they are just schrek clones. I'd rather change them up in such a way that they are effective but unique. Like maybe high close range pen but a steep drop off. Or maybe something else.
Personally, I wish this game used deflection damage more. I think it would solve a lot of the issues with RNG in this game and with armor battles in general. I'd rather armor values be used as a damage reducer as opposed to a chance to do no damage.
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when do i say that zooks are a better overall weapon than shreks? shreks are better because theyre more reliable. zooks are very useful for dealing with light armor like the flak halftrack that has seen a popular rise now a day. they still retain some usefulness in mid game with dealing with, or fighting off medium armor, and can basically only take on heavy armor when shooting from the rear and flanking. where as the shrek is a pretty run of the mill AT weapon, the zooka is more of a rapid firing weapon (that you can get a lot of) thats best used when flanking to maximize your damage potential.
Never said you said they are better, this is what I said.
Right, but that's basically the problem. You can't just be like, well they are just as good, except for this really important statistic that they suck at.
My claim was that you said they are just as good. However, re-reading the thread, I mistook someone else's post for yours.
You did say this:
im not arguing that bazookas are just as good as shreks. shreks are definitely the better overall portable AT weapon. but the fact is, with penetration aside, bazookas do basically the same DPS as a shreks do. in fact, its easier to shoot and scoot with the bazooka because of the higher fire rate.
So my apologies for incorrectly attributing a quote to you.
But let me address some of the points you make. I don't think zooks are worthless, but they definitely underperform. I don't think people buy them because they are having trouble killing halftracks, they buy them to fight off armor. They can be useful against some meds, if you can flank or if you just have a lot of zooks, but it's not reliable at all.
I also disagree that they are useful against heavies in any capacity even from the flank. Both the tiger and tiger ace have 180 rear armor, king tiger has 225 rear armor. Maybe against the elefant and jagdtiger they'd be somewhat effective from the rear, since they both have 150 rear armor. Zooks don't really shoot that much faster, for it to be called a rapid firing weapon.
Their reload time is only 2 seconds faster, or 25% faster than the schrek. You'd have to perfectly time the "shoot and scoot" at 6 seconds for it to be an advantage. Also, their dps isn't the same, schreks have 15% more dps at max range.
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practically its best to look at the first few volleys, since its likely that medium armor will back up as soon as they see AT weaponry.
lets limit the window of engagement to 11 or so seconds. in this time frame, a bazooka can fire 3 times. if all 3 shots successfully penetrate, you deal 80 x 3 damage. in the same time frame, a shrek will fire twice, for 120 x 2 damage.
if you further limit the window of engagement to 6 seconds, the bazooka will deal 160 damage, where as the shrek will only be able fire once so that it deals 120 damage.
equip another bazooka for 60 munitions and you double the damage output.
imo the only real downside for the bazooka is that its penetration really sucks compared to the shrek.
Right, but that's basically the problem. You can't just be like, well they are just as good, except for this really important statistic that they suck at.
While two zooks do have more theoretical dps than 1 schrek, when you factor in penetration, they don't really. A bazooka has a 61% chance to pen a p4 at max range, while a schrek has a 100% chance to pen a T-34 and a regular sherman at max range. So you can see why it feels like, schreks are always dominating allied mediums, but zooks feel worthless. Like someone had said earlier, the burst damage is really important in these battles since a tank is likely to retreat or back away after a volley is launched.
However, I do think that just upping the pen on bazookas is kind of boring. I'd like to figure out some way to make zooks more effective without them needing to be a mirror of schreks. Maybe something like, giving zooks much higher pen at near range, and then a big drop off at max. So that it encourages you to try to close in on tanks with your infantry, or something like that. Or maybe the reverse, maybe schreks need their max range pen to be a lot lower so they only outmatch zooks at close range. Or maybe some other idea.
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Right, I just meant, similar as in, you cannot see them. Not just invisible to radar or something. Sorry I was a little unclear.
What about the first strike bonus? That always occurs when active correct? and vet5 just increases the bonus? |
Mr. Someguy is correct.
I can confirm that it does not hide the engine noises. They may be more quiet, but they are certainly still present. I have found a couple Jagdpanzers via this method. It definitely takes sometime though to figure out exactly where they are because you do have to walk rather close to decloak the OKW unit.
Ok so this does actually cloak the tank, similar to how a sniper is cloaked.
Based on the wording of the vet5 bonus, it sounds like even at vet0, it gets the first strike bonus, is this correct?
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So it's like a sniper in camo basically? You can't see it unless you're up close to it?
Also, the vet5 bonus sounds like it increases the bonus damage from the ambush, not gives a bonus damage to it.
First strike bonus does additional damage
Appreciate the help. |
Anybody know exactly what this ability does? What does it mean "harder to detect"? I don't see how this ability is useful at all. |
The reason why it seems so much better is the kat can deal massive damage to a blob at max range In the first set of rockets, and if your caught by it your gonna get hit by 2 waves before the retreating infantry are out of it.
in contrast to panzerwerfer's max range all rockets will fall on a area and barely scratch a blob, its not uncommon for when ive fired on a 1919 para or rifle blob all rockets fired on target - 3-8 kills.
The frustrating part is if it was a kat truck it most likely would of squad wiped something and gotten 12+ kills on a sizeable blob.
When I build a kat truck it almost always feels worth it, When I build a panzerwerfer I regret it half the time, Because the fuel would of better been spent on a tank.
At max range, it's a bit luck based. I've shot things with my kat at max range and never killed anything, I usually get my best performance from both of these when I'm move them up a little and get a smaller spread. Werfer feels more manueverable so it seems easier to do that. Also, when a wefer launches, your only hope is to retreat right when you hear it.
I agree that the wefer's placement in the tech tree is a pretty big hinderance. Costs a lot of fuel to just be able to build it. I think when it used to be a lot stronger, it made sense, now I'm not so sure. |