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Panthers

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OZtheWiZARD
18 Sep 2013, 08:53 AM
#41
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Posts: 1439

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 07:13 AMpanzerjager2


of course you will find it amazing ... for you everything German is OP being a soviet fanboy yourself.

OP excellent points .... lets hope relic does something about it. I already created a thread about the panther a few months ago but apart from the massive and ridiculous manpower increase nothing was done.


It's the best tank in the game. You can't deny that. What do you want more? To be super tank? One shoot everything?
Someone probably couldn't handle it and lost probably to SU-85 or even IS-2 (tank that should go and goes toe to toe with Tiger) and came here to start new topic to complain how Panthers are useless.
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Nullist
18 Sep 2013, 09:03 AM
#42
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Posts: 2425

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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 08:53 AMOZtheWiZARD
It's the best tank in the game. You can't deny that.


Yes. We can, and do.
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cataclaw
18 Sep 2013, 09:24 AM
#43
avatar of cataclaw

Posts: 523

I barely ever see any Panthers in my 1v1 games as Soviets, if i do, i mostly have most of the map and already have counters out by then.

I never use them in 1v1. The risk/reward ratio is too damn low.
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panzerjager2
18 Sep 2013, 09:59 AM
#44
avatar of panzerjager2

Posts: 168

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 09:03 AMNullist


Yes. We can, and do.


Arguing with a soviet fangirl like ozwizard is a waste of time. He still doesn't get it that a T4 unit costing 600MP and 135 fuel has the EXACT SAME penetration as a much cheaper su85.

Panther needs a definite manpower cost reduction back to 440 (maybe increase fuel to 150 for all I care) along with slightly better anti infantry capability.

Right now its ridiculouse to watch a panther needing 2 minutes to force a conscript squad to retreat.
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Endeav
18 Sep 2013, 10:31 AM
#45
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 09:59 AMpanzerjager2


Arguing with a soviet fangirl like ozwizard is a waste of time. He still doesn't get it that a T4 unit costing 600MP and 135 fuel has the EXACT SAME penetration as a much cheaper su85.

Panther needs a definite manpower cost reduction back to 440 (maybe increase fuel to 150 for all I care) along with slightly better anti infantry capability.

Right now its ridiculouse to watch a panther needing 2 minutes to force a conscript squad to retreat.


The only thing with penetration higher than 170 is the pak43 at 400 pen
Even an elefant has 170 pen. Really bad argument there.

Considering that the the su-85 gets by just fine with 170 pen shooting generally higher armored german vehicles, 170 is more than enough for a panther that is shooting generally lower soviet armor numbers. If you want to cite the tiger's lower armor than the is-2 it us a 4% penetration difference for 170 pen guns.
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Raindrop
18 Sep 2013, 10:48 AM
#46
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Posts: 105

I guess most Wehrmacht players want the Panther to be simply a better PIV, same as the T34/85 is simply a better T34/76 (both have AoE of 2,5 and same dps on MG's) with the only diffrence that the T34/85 has more armor and HP, better scatter and dmg per shoot then T34/76.

Imo they should atleast increase its maingun AoE and scatter to the level of the SU85.
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Endeav
18 Sep 2013, 10:55 AM
#47
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 10:48 AMRaindrop
I guess most Wehrmacht players want the Panther to be simply a better PIV, same as the T34/85 is simply a better T34/76 (both have AoE of 2,5 and same dps on MG's) with the only diffrence that the T34/85 has more armor and HP, better scatter and dmg per shoot then T34/76.

Imo they should atleast increase its maingun AoE and scatter to the level of the SU85.


I believe one of the reasons they gave it lower scatter is due to the absence of any machine guns. It also has to shoot from further away and thus needs a bit less scatter, though why they didn't compensate the elefant as well is unknown.
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OZtheWiZARD
18 Sep 2013, 11:53 AM
#48
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 09:59 AMpanzerjager2


Arguing with a soviet fangirl like ozwizard is a waste of time. He still doesn't get it that a T4 unit costing 600MP and 135 fuel has the EXACT SAME penetration as a much cheaper su85.

Panther needs a definite manpower cost reduction back to 440 (maybe increase fuel to 150 for all I care) along with slightly better anti infantry capability.

Right now its ridiculouse to watch a panther needing 2 minutes to force a conscript squad to retreat.


I'm simply trying trying to be reasonable here. SU-85 is a tank destroyer, Panther is a tank. What's more Phanter have no problems dealing with SU-85. After recent patch it's even easier to do so.
The real threat to a Panther is a IS-2, but as I said IS-2 should be compared directly with a Tiger. Still 2 Panthers can kill it quite easily.

On the side note it's really hilarious being called by a fangirl by someone who plays only Germans.

I'll repeat it again.
Panther for its value is the best tank in the game. Why would you buff it up even further?
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Hirmetrium
18 Sep 2013, 11:59 AM
#49
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Patrion 14

Posts: 179

OZ, I don't feel like the Panther is the best tank for cost. That would be the Pz4, which is effective against infantry and armour alike.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Panther made into a more powerful generalist unit...I guess its a question of the niche in which it fills. It can either be a more expensive Pz4/Less Expensive Tiger, or made to be a mobile anti tank platform with weaker infantry killing capacity.
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OZtheWiZARD
18 Sep 2013, 12:00 PM
#50
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

Yeah sure. Make it like PzIV but better. Don't be silly...
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Hirmetrium
18 Sep 2013, 12:02 PM
#51
avatar of Hirmetrium
Patrion 14

Posts: 179

Well what do you suggest? You've done nothing but moan so far. At least contribute to the discussion. There aren't many options available for the Panther, and it certainly isn't as good as you claim. Do you want proof? go play some games. You'll find yourself struggling with Panthers, and finding them very cost ineffective (as others said they can lose you games).

I can't find a good niche for the Panther, not when Tigers are only slightly more in cost.
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Blovski
18 Sep 2013, 12:08 PM
#52
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2013, 19:15 PMAbdul


You bring allot of valid points, but I think this is the biggest problem. I don't understand why they made this change, but I think it made the tank too expensive now.


The 600 mp/less fuel cost change is really big for 1v1 use of Panthers, in that it reduces the window of opportunity between the first Soviet vehicle and a Panther by about a minute in a reasonable fuel gain scenario. MP you can save up, if you have to; fuel you can't get any faster than the map will let you.

@Bigchunk, a Panther lets you do a lot of things AT guns can't.

@Hirmetrium, I'm hardly the world's best player but I've not had trouble with it. Getting a Panther against SU-85s is a really good call, against Tier 3 it's more problematic but if you survive to two Panthers against tier 3, no number of T-34s will seriously threaten them.
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panzerjager2
18 Sep 2013, 12:12 PM
#53
avatar of panzerjager2

Posts: 168

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 12:00 PMOZtheWiZARD
Yeah sure. Make it like PzIV but better. Don't be silly...


Wow your pro soviet bias is so evident in the last few posts ... it leaves no doubt that there can be no reasoning with you. Why don't you haunt the other threads on whining for more t34 and is2 buffs instead of worrying about panthers.

Again Panther is SIX HUNDRED (600) man power and 135 fuel, requires T4 building which in turn requires the battle phase 3 upgrade. That even you will agree is quite a lot of resources for a tank which costs almost as 2 Panzer4's to produce factoring in the tech costs.

For the amount of resources spent I expect a panther to be MUCH better than a panzer 4 in the anti infantry and especially the AT role.

I think its only fair panther gets a manpower reduction with a slight fuel increase. Right now with the stupid new increased vehicle pop cap its very hard to save up enough mp to get the panther.
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Cardboard Tank
18 Sep 2013, 12:39 PM
#54
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Posts: 978

I don´t like the current concept of the Panther being supposed to be used as a flanking tank. This is not how it was used at all. The thing had weak side armor and was supposed to be used at range and get the hell out of close engagements. Atm. it´s a racecar that´s being rushed into SU-85 formations drives some circles, fights at a distance of 10 metres and drives out there again. It looks so silly.

That being said: I think the Panther should get more range (55) and better frontal armor. As a tradeoff the sides should be easy to penetrate, even by 76mm armed T-34s. Blitzkrieg speed buff should be reduced also. This way the Panther would be used correctly. As a long range anti tank weapon.

Right now it´s not worth 600mp. Alternatively the cost could be adjusted to something around 500mp, 145 fuel.
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Stoffa
18 Sep 2013, 12:51 PM
#55
avatar of Stoffa

Posts: 333

Man its just cringeworthy to read a discussion like this. So many people pouring oil on the fire, claiming they want "better balance" whereas in fact they only play one faction exclusively.

German players want the Panther buffed, Soviet players say it's fine. There's just so little people here that actually truly want better balance instead of just crying for buffs of their beloved army.
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cataclaw
18 Sep 2013, 12:54 PM
#56
avatar of cataclaw

Posts: 523

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 12:51 PMStoffa
Man its just cringeworthy to read a discussion like this. So many people pouring oil on the fire, claiming they want "better balance" whereas in fact they only play one faction exclusively.

German players want the Panther buffed, Soviet players say it's fine. There's just so little people here that actually truly want better balance instead of just crying for buffs of their beloved army.


Amen, this post pretty much sums up my feeling.
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JohanSchwarz
18 Sep 2013, 12:56 PM
#57
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 12:51 PMStoffa
Man its just cringeworthy to read a discussion like this. So many people pouring oil on the fire, claiming they want "better balance" whereas in fact they only play one faction exclusively.

German players want the Panther buffed, Soviet players say it's fine. There's just so little people here that actually truly want better balance instead of just crying for buffs of their beloved army.


This is true. Well said.
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Endeav
18 Sep 2013, 15:34 PM
#58
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2013, 12:51 PMStoffa
Man its just cringeworthy to read a discussion like this. So many people pouring oil on the fire, claiming they want "better balance" whereas in fact they only play one faction exclusively.

German players want the Panther buffed, Soviet players say it's fine. There's just so little people here that actually truly want better balance instead of just crying for buffs of their beloved army.


I play both faction equally. Well no, I have more german games because Wooof can't play soviet.
I do believe the panther is fine. Panzerjaeger continually downplays the fact that the panther has, well, tanking ability in having 960 hp and 270; along with excellent mobility (.4 top speed and acceleration slower than a t34/76). At 50 range it had the same range as a stug and 10 less than an su-85.

The panther beats every soviet tank bar the is-2, and even then it seriously harms the is-2 and is an effective deterrent. It has enough hp and armor to not have to tuck tail and run from at guns at first sight. It also has the hp, armor, range and damage to stand off against su-85 and the mobility to retreat when needed.
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undostrescuatro
18 Sep 2013, 17:15 PM
#59
avatar of undostrescuatro

Posts: 525

i kill su with panthers up front, don't debate about mines etc because i am sure those things wont happen when i charged up. i have made people rage quit by killing their su with panthers mercilessly. and this was before the su had both the spotting nerf and the speed nerf. i am getting sick of the constant german whine of soviet tanks. as soviets right now don't have a viable unit that can do things on its own. scept shock troops. COMBINED ARMY AHOY!

mean while the Germans whine that they want 1 of their units counter the whole soviet army.

what a cryfest.
Disclaimer: any post made by this user should not be taken seriously, reader discretion is advised.
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MorgolKing
18 Sep 2013, 17:48 PM
#60
avatar of MorgolKing

Posts: 148

I agree Panther needs a slight buff.
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