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russian armor

Conscripts - when being a looser is your fate

6 Jun 2016, 20:06 PM
#21
avatar of KyleAkira

Posts: 410


1)You dont show us your playercard,how can i even believe you ?
2)1 shot * 6 / 6-7 sec . Do you believe or do you know ? I know,that whatever you say doesnt change the fact that cons do well close and mid range.
3)Okay enough said.
4)Why are you still arguing although so many people told you the opposite ? It is not like i am new to the game or so.


I think you refer to 1v1 games, and Misscomissar refers to team games.
On shorter retreat paths & wide maps, conscripts role fits fine. On narrow and long retreat maps, conscripts doesn't fit well and that's why most of russian players doesn't make 3-4 conscript start.
As a russian player on team games I can assure you that I prefer doing maxims into guards than conscript start.
6 Jun 2016, 20:06 PM
#22
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

1. Burst Damage. Cons only need 5 shots to drop a model and against Grenadiers it's far more punishing as that's 25% of their DPS being dropped. 16 damage vs the 12 of Volks or 8 of Rifles. It's RNG, but it can also allow Conscripts to suddenly catch up in a DPS race at short.

2. Overstating the 1.087 when you consider most Axis early ranged infantry already have good accuracy and the fact Cons are 20 to reinforce per model vs a Grenadiers 30 or a Volks 25. You make it sound like it's the weapon team 25% which is very noticeable compared to the Conscripts 1.087. They also still have 80hp per model.

3.And? Tank Traps are harder to fit squads behind and are exclusive to Rear Echelon. Volk Sandbags also aren't exactly large while the USF needs specific docs for sandbags.

4. Conscripts are not mainline damage dealers and never have been. Doctrinal troops or the upcoming Penals are the ones who deal damage, while Conscripts take damage/draw fire and be the utility belt they are. It's how they've been for awhile.

The only thing Conscripts should possibly get is lower reinforcement costs with veterancy to maybe at 16-17 to emphasize their role as support/screening troops for the other Soviet units and possibly adjustments to their grenade packages in costs.

If we're really bored, give them a squad leader like in my mod just to mess things up :P


1. That's RNG, and mostly - it works against you. 5 target hits per once - that happens really rare, specially in one model-target. Specially, when enemy grens stand in any kind of cover, at least yellow. I don't see that as something good, don't know about you. I prefer to have solid firepower, not random. Grens are solid, Volks are solid, whoever else are, but not Cons.

2. Yea, but good accuracy + high target size in that case = nice Vet farm for Ostheer units and fast forcing of retreat for your enemy, because if your Cons squad loosing more than 3 man - you have to retreat. Otherwise, with such high target size they have high chanses to be shooted in retreat, it happens pretty often, I should say. And please, don't use "cheapness" as excuse for ruining of most important part of Cons design - survivability. If unit is cheap, it doesn't mean it should suck in everything. Just in something, like firepower or survivability, but only one of that. Not both, please.

3. Oh... Sizes matters, yea. But still - it's sandbags, you can use them for covers. And it is not much harder to use them, than Sov sanbags, lol. And don't forget - non-doc trenches for Tommy-squads! Exlusive and uniqe.

4. Lol, now conscripts are not mainline damagers. And you suggest to use for that purpouse "doctrinal squads". You know how it looks like? Imagine, that Ostheer would have Osttrupens as mainline and Grens in docs. Doesn't it look ridiculous? It does, but for USSR it's fine somehow.
And I absolutely don't agree with that propagande of "Soviet doctrinal addiction", which you suggest here. Don't you think, that it is hardly broken faction, which gets all real combat units only from doctrines? Normal medium tanks are only from doctrines, normal infantry from doctrines, normal... everything! That's just broken, compare it with same UKF or OKW or whoever else, which have everything good in stock - from infantry to tanks. And from doctrines UKF geting even more powerful units, like Commandos or Churchulls-specialized and cool off-map abilites.

I think, that If Conscripts are not suppoused to be "mainline infantry" in your mind, then they should be removed from that post and should be putted and used like "rear echelones" soldiers - T0 supports to real mainlines. Real mainlines can be non-doc Guards, or some another infantry squad, but not Penals, pls.

P.S. Penals suck. Personal opinion, 21+.
6 Jun 2016, 20:20 PM
#23
avatar of KyleAkira

Posts: 410

I like penals. 2 flamer penals + 2 guards into kats+T85's is a good mix
6 Jun 2016, 20:24 PM
#24
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2306 | Subs: 4


4. Lol, now conscripts are not mainline damagers. And you suggest to use for that purpouse "doctrinal squads". You know how it looks like? Imagine, that Ostheer would have Osttrupens as mainline and Grens in docs. Doesn't it look ridiculous? It does, but for USSR it's fine somehow.

I would make that trade, Osttruppen are awesome.

Cons aren't your mainline fighting infantry, penals are. Now that they are buffed to being awesome in the coming patch they will finally fill their real role. Support unit. They are great in the early game, until they peter off with vet and fall into a supporting role with their many abilities, giving penals, guards, and shocks the role of damage dealers.
6 Jun 2016, 20:26 PM
#25
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

I like penals. 2 flamer penals + 2 guards into kats+T85's is a good mix


2 flamerpenals require from you to say "NO!" to Maxims, mortars and only your early AT guns. Can't say, that they are so good, that I could exchange really needed support guns to "little better version of cons", snipers and trashy car. Give to Penals early AT, like PTRS pack - will use them.
6 Jun 2016, 20:27 PM
#26
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2016, 20:24 PMTobis

I would make that trade, Osttruppen are awesome.

Cons aren't your mainline fighting infantry, penals are.


Put penals in T0, that I wouldn't need to trade them to my Maxims and mortars and AT guns and I will accept that. Otherwise - Cons are mainline.
6 Jun 2016, 20:39 PM
#27
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1844 | Subs: 1



2 flamerpenals require from you to say "NO!" to Maxims, mortars and only your early AT guns. Can't say, that they are so good, that I could exchange really needed support guns to "little better version of cons", snipers and trashy car. Give to Penals early AT, like PTRS pack - will use them.


You do realize there isn't a law saying that you can't Tech both Special Rifle and Support Weapons right? Seeing as how Support Weapon Kamp costs all of 20 fuel it's not that much of a stretch
6 Jun 2016, 20:49 PM
#28
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13



You do realize there isn't a law saying that you can't Tech both Special Rifle and Support Weapons right? Seeing as how Support Weapon Kamp costs all of 20 fuel it's not that much of a stretch


Everything's apparently too expensive nowadays. Might as well say GG Ostheer while we're at it with their Battlephase upgrade :D
6 Jun 2016, 21:07 PM
#29
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673



Everything's apparently too expensive nowadays. Might as well say GG Ostheer while we're at it with their Battlephase upgrade :D


Soviet tiers are kinda "lower" than Ostheer. For example - reinforcing truck in T3 for USSR and in T2 for Ostheer. Or - universal medium tank for USSR is T4, while for Ostheer it's T3. And of course, no panther-like tanks for USSR.

Personally, I don't use T4 at all, cos Pz4 are fine enough for to live with even in late. So, I can save a lot of resouses on that, but USSR can't. And of course - spend fuel on grenade upgrades.

Anyway, ostheer tiering is not that "bad and overpriced", like people prefer to think.
6 Jun 2016, 21:22 PM
#30
avatar of KyleAkira

Posts: 410



2 flamerpenals require from you to say "NO!" to Maxims, mortars and only your early AT guns. Can't say, that they are so good, that I could exchange really needed support guns to "little better version of cons", snipers and trashy car. Give to Penals early AT, like PTRS pack - will use them.


You forget that in 2v2 games you team up with your mate so he can cover your weaknesses. Stuart or AEC is enough to cover you till t4 tanks.
6 Jun 2016, 21:56 PM
#31
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673



You forget that in 2v2 games you team up with your mate so he can cover your weaknesses. Stuart or AEC is enough to cover you till t4 tanks.


Well... it's all situative teamplay cases. I speak about "general design and mechanics". General design of Conscripts is ridiculously poor and unreasonable bad. No additional weapons without doctrines, low firepower, bad grenades, big target size, causing fast underfire death... And for what?

If they are "utility infantry", then it's bad idea. If your real core infantry, which you spend resourses on with upgrades are just "utility", then it's reaaaaaly bad design and faction making. If my real mainline, like Mirage says are Penals, then let Penals have Molotovs and AT-nades too, with Cons, or instead of them. Otherwise, it only complicates game for USSR without any reason.
7 Jun 2016, 01:07 AM
#32
avatar of Pluralitas

Posts: 70

Dont feel the need to buff cons stats wise.. It is meant to be spammy and blobby in early game against grens or volks(similar style) and for tank and snare in the latter. Only complain is the molotovs and at nades being seperate upgrades, maybe combine them into one upgrade package? Wonder how many actually upgrade and use molotovs?

7 Jun 2016, 02:11 AM
#33
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2306 | Subs: 4



Well... it's all situative teamplay cases. I speak about "general design and mechanics". General design of Conscripts is ridiculously poor and unreasonable bad. No additional weapons without doctrines, low firepower, bad grenades, big target size, causing fast underfire death... And for what?

If they are "utility infantry", then it's bad idea. If your real core infantry, which you spend resourses on with upgrades are just "utility", then it's reaaaaaly bad design and faction making. If my real mainline, like Mirage says are Penals, then let Penals have Molotovs and AT-nades too, with Cons, or instead of them. Otherwise, it only complicates game for USSR without any reason.

You realize you don't have to use cons, right? Once the patch comes out you can skip right to penals if you want stronger early game infantry. Then use cons as supplemental support units still. It's not like teching locks you out of anything. The abilities are what give cons their utility, wanting to put them on Penals is just asinine. Can you really not understand the concept of different infantry squads playing different roles? Not everything has to be riflemen.

Cons are strong enough in the early game anyway. Have you ever tried closing with oorah? They beat both volks and grens from close range.
7 Jun 2016, 02:42 AM
#34
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



"They are fine in context of the Soviet army". For me it sounds like "Soviet army sux so hard, that bad Conscripts unit alone looks better, than entire faction in general". Well, +1 to that.

But for real - they are excellent support? I thought, that support job is for support units, like HMGs, like AT-guns or speciallized support infantry... you know. And mainlines infantry job is not support, but fight and capture and doing most imoprtant job in field. Not support.

And good news - not only Cons can build good green covers and fight nice behind them. Volks can do it, Tommies can do it, and also build non-doc trenches, lol. That's not "strength" side of Cons, try something else.


Soviets arent even that bad atm, and as other said Cons work as early game units that can give you effective map control for minimal mp bleed. As the game progresses the become meat shields to soak up damage and support the Soviet's very strong elite infantry and provide utility (Cons with anti-tank grenades with guards is very effective against light vehicles). Cons are also cheap (240) with basically no bleed, quick and cheap reinforcement costs, Cons aren't designed to be like other infantry where they are your main damage output, cons thrive when supported by elite infantry and support weapons to be used to maximum effect.


"Give to Penals early AT, like PTRS pack - will use them."

Then T1 loses its main weakness and becomes much stronger than T2, and plenty of people who go t1 tech to t2 for AT, and likely more people will do it after the patch.
7 Jun 2016, 03:14 AM
#35
avatar of bicho1

Posts: 168

not only the sovits are under



usf are strugeling vs aixe factions too in 1 v 1 late game

usf paper tanks can't really fight german easy to use durable armor
flanking is heavely punished german ATGS penetrate every shoot wille my wood ATGS mostly cant penetrate
+mines


usf poor infentry late game cant do much vs ober with lmgs or greens and lmgs
usf players have to blob but then they get hard contered by stuka or wermaht warfer



7 Jun 2016, 03:46 AM
#36
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 03:14 AMbicho1
not only the sovits are under



usf are strugeling vs aixe factions too in 1 v 1 late game

usf paper tanks can't really fight german easy to use durable armor
flanking is heavely punished german ATGS penetrate every shoot wille my wood ATGS mostly cant penetrate
+mines


usf poor infentry late game cant do much vs ober with lmgs or greens and lmgs
usf players have to blob but then they get hard contered by stuka or wermaht warfer





This thread isnt even about USF mate
7 Jun 2016, 03:56 AM
#37
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I think that nondoc muni upgrades with T4 building would be neat but it's not happening

7 Jun 2016, 04:15 AM
#38
avatar of wouren
Senior Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 1280 | Subs: 3

In my debate club, we would say that there is 'straw everywhere'






Edit:
7 Jun 2016, 05:12 AM
#39
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 02:11 AMTobis

You realize you don't have to use cons, right? Once the patch comes out you can skip right to penals if you want stronger early game infantry. Then use cons as supplemental support units still. It's not like teching locks you out of anything. The abilities are what give cons their utility, wanting to put them on Penals is just asinine. Can you really not understand the concept of different infantry squads playing different roles? Not everything has to be riflemen.

Cons are strong enough in the early game anyway. Have you ever tried closing with oorah? They beat both volks and grens from close range.


Ok, but roles should be reasonable and there should be logic behind it, don't you think so? Cons are utility infantry? Fine, then why I should spend my resourses for not cheap equip-upgrades on them, instead of real combat infantry (Penals or whoever else)? Why from very start I must use "utility infantry" with poor combat stats, while ALL other faction will have real combats?

Cons as support is ridiculous idea. For some reasons, Grens are equiped with pretty same pack (nade+at snare) and in same time - have nice firepower and weapon upgrades + cost similar 240 MP. So, it seems to be possible to have both support and combat unit at once without "breaking balance or something else". Merge and Oorah abilites are overrated, I think, just like "6 man squad benefits". It looks like people don't really play in CoH 2 and don't see, that all of those things can't replace real unit qualities - durability and firepower and make unit worth spendings on it.

And 240 MP is... pretty big price for "utility unit" with no durability or firepower, Osttrupens and Rears looks more reasonable with their 200 MP price at that role.

Btw, I don't like that concept "Cons support, Penals combat". I would like to see another "Engineers support, Cons combat, Penals in trash, changed to Guards with PTRS or DP-28 optional upgrades". That would really make soviet infantryplay more powerful, soviet gameplay in general less painful and... it would have sense. You will have only 1 support unit in T0, instead of (unnecessary) 2 (cobmat engineers), 1 mediocre combat unit Cons, and really tough combat Gurads in T1 for 330-350 MP (that's a lot for early game, you should know), if you want to play agressive. Guards would also work well with M3 and be T1 AT-unit, which would make it way more attractive for people, which don't want to lose to helluva "222 spam" or earlyluchs.

Guards in doctrines might be changed to "VDV Paratroopers" with PPS-42/43 smgs, for close-mid combat fights.

P.S. Ok, that my idea is kinda... ridiculous also, as idea of support-concsripts. But here is another - add Commissars in USSR already, for they could rise up combat abilities of that "utility trash"! Add them in doctrine or in T1. Better in T1 - more attractive for aggresive players again.

7 Jun 2016, 05:59 AM
#40
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

I guess i shouldn't reply to troll threads.

Since game launch cons have been patched constantly and are finally fine now.They do not need lmgs or superior firepower to win fights,they have durability and versatility.Cons win my games.

If you cant win with them i highly recommend you the guides section or ask a strategist if you have a specific problem.




words rirght from my mouth
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