SU-85; The Thread
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedAs to flanking it, any compentent player need only reverse it, and continue firing on the flan k attempting unit, whilst presenting frontal armor.
Its 0.1 faster than PIvs, meaning when reversed there is no way for a PIV to engage in circle strafing, because it simply will not keep up. Even the Panther, at 0.2 faster than the SU85, will have trouble achieving and maintaining circle strafe on it..
PGrens, at 3 movement, have no chance whatsoever of maintaining critical pressure vs a reversing SU85.
Small rotation reduction and either reverse speed, or reverse accuracy, is warranted.
As it stands now, simply reversing out of flanking circle strafes, while presenting forward armor, and maintaining fire, is disproportionate to Ost armor speeds.
The problem with speeds here is further illustrated, in parallel, by Stugs speed of 5 vs T34s speed of 5.8.
(When Stug re-enters the meta, I expect this is also a latent issue for addressing later on... particularlt considering the ubiquitous and ever so controversial Ram in this engagement (though personally I think it is central to armor balance) (Furthermore, Stugs are incapable of pursuing an SU85 or of reversing away from it, due to this same speed differential)
SU85 armor is fine, penetration, reload and dmg is fine, accuracy is fine, cost is fine, range is fine, Focus Sight is fine.
Rotation speed and reverse speed however create a disparity not only vs its natural armor counters, but also in relation to the parallel Stug vs T34 parity.
Its simply "too fast", both in rotation to negate circle strafe, and in reverse to negate flanking actions.
The speed/rotation changes required are tiny, but they are a serious factor in armor combat. Even a 0.1-0.2 change would be sufficient.
Posts: 99
At the very least, even if one believes rotation speed is fine as-is, reverse speed (and I'd argue frontal speed too) is certainly off balance. The tank escapes flanks a little too easily for all it can do. I can't tell you how many times I've been locked in a side-by-side race with a retreating SU-85.
The speed is only one issue though. It still comes too early and snipes infantry (agree to disagree some of you).
Posts: 88
The rotatation is just a smidgeon too high in relation to circle strafing Armor.
As to flanking it, any compentent player need only reverse it, and continue firing on the flan k attempting unit, whilst presenting frontal armor.
Its 0.1 faster than PIvs, meaning when reversed there is no way for a PIV to engage in circle strafing, because it simply will not keep up. Even the Panther, at 0.2 faster than the SU85, will have trouble achieving and maintaining circle strafe on it..
PGrens, at 3 movement, have no chance whatsoever of maintaining critical pressure vs a reversing SU85.
Small rotation reduction and either reverse speed, or reverse accuracy, is warranted.
As it stands now, simply reversing out of flanking circle strafes, while presenting forward armor, and maintaining fire, is disproportionate to Ost armor speeds.
The problem with speeds here is further illustrated, in parallel, by Stugs speed of 5 vs T34s speed of 5.8.
(When Stug re-enters the meta, I expect this is also a latent issue for addressing later on... particularlt considering the ubiquitous and ever so controversial Ram in this engagement (though personally I think it is central to armor balance) (Furthermore, Stugs are incapable of pursuing an SU85 or of reversing away from it, due to this same speed differential)
SU85 armor is fine, penetration, reload and dmg is fine, accuracy is fine, cost is fine, range is fine, Focus Sight is fine.
Rotation speed and reverse speed however create a disparity not only vs its natural armor counters, but also in relation to the parallel Stug vs T34 parity.
Its simply "too fast", both in rotation to negate circle strafe, and in reverse to negate flanking actions.
The speed/rotation changes required are tiny, but they are a serious factor in armor combat. Even a 0.1-0.2 change would be sufficient.
faust?
Posts: 99
Posts: 88
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedPosts: 73
Which leaves the most save counters at the moment to be doctrinal, but these really destroy them (PAK43 and Elefant).
I used PAK43s in a game against someone who in total build 4 SU85s.
I build 2 PAK43s that covered 2 VPs and some P4s and the SU85s had no chance (PAK43 2 shots a SU85)
I would agree though, that the SU85 is a bit to fast for what it is and should maybe reduced in speed so that counter-play is not reliant on the russian player making a mistake with his SU85.
Posts: 77
Stephen was referring to how to play against it, using in-game experiences (I am not saying no one else plays), whereas Nullist for example, has been citing the in-game stats. Both points are valid, but units should not be taken in a vacuum past the initial gren vs 'script battles, as there simply will not be 1 unit for it to focus on. If that is the case, then you surely need to manage your forces better in order to counteract it.
For me, it is rather telling that with the su-85 being a tank destroyer specialist, some individuals in this thread are actually comparing how it fares against armour when its sole purpose is to destroy it. Again, those who state its apparent ability to snipe infantry are misguided, it will do so very rarely, perhaps accumulating 5-10 if it survives a full long game; whereas a PIV or even a T-34 (and god forbid a t-70) would do far more. Its AI capability is no higher than an AT gun.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the maps themselves. While one map in particular yields exceptional efficacy for su-85s (Moscow Outskirts), the rest can be quite tricky to back-pedal on versus oncoming tanks and infantry. Good examples would be Pripyat with its narrow roads and lots of trees (especially away from the center, yet even there, the bridges make the pathing screwy even with the traversable, frozen river). If you can force an su-85 to have its back to a hedge or treeline on those maps, it is often a death sentence.
TL;DR I think the su-85 is fine in its current state, the only change I would feel acceptable would be to reduce its accuracy while moving (making being aggressive against it slightly more viable, as just forcing it to move would be useful).
Posts: 176
It snipes Infantry - This should be once in a blue moon not every second hit. I had a incident yesterday were an entire Pioneer squad was picked off (The last man on retreat!) by four SU-85s shots in a row. I'm not even going to mention the time four of my Panzergren stopped to fire their shrecks to eat a SU-85 shell that decimated the entire squad. They should flat out be ineffective against Infantry.
It provides it's own line of sight - This is absolutely broken, by all means allow this ability to be used but the SU-85 MUST suffer something for it, less accuracy, slower reload. Just something that makes people think before turning it on and then leaving it on for the entire game. The fact it has the highest range in the game (Bar the Elephant, which requires it's own scouting) coupled with the highest line of sight and I'm unsure but I wouldn't be surprised if it had the highest DPM in the game too.
Oh let's not forget it has 170-180 Frontal Armour when the nature of the unit suggests it should be a glass cannon.
Posts: 300
I've got a better idea, just remove all tanks and infantry from Soviet and change the Army name to Poland so it'll just be Ostheer vs Civilians. Sounds like a fun game.
+100
Posts: 255
The SU-85 in it's current state is entirely unacceptable.
It snipes Infantry - This should be once in a blue moon not every second hit.
i require some sort of proof of this, no one ever stated its AI was too high untill 1 person said it and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. i went out and tested this, on average it killed an infantry member every 7 shots. almost never getting a double kill.
Vid or you are simply a wagon roady
Posts: 604
Considering they'd all be shooting AP shells, this would be the best value.
If it weren't so agile it'd be easier to flank. Flanking (and covering the flanks) makes for good games so it should be encouraged.
Posts: 176
Posts: 589
edit: maintain the speed both forward and backward to make up for the hp reduction
Posts: 13
Posts: 255
- Give the Stug a cone viz ability (at vet 1)
- Make Su85 cone viz come at vet 1.
- slightly reduce reverse speed of su85 (This is not as crucial as above two solutions)
(rotation speed is ok'ish imo)
- Give stug same range as su-85 or at least close to(leave their damage as is.)
These points will give the german player a tier 3 solution(non-doctrinal) to the su85, without making it less useful to russians.
Posts: 915
Posts: 267 | Subs: 8
This issue is fairly complex unfortunately.
Posts: 954
Posts: 29
Stug murders entire soviet T3 if there's Grenedier or PG by its sideWhy would you attack a Stug with an unsupported T-34. It goes both ways.
Keep in mind any changes to the Stug to improve its viability will inadvertently reduce the viability of the T34, which also seems to be a key concern within the community.I think the problem is that there is no reason to ever build a Stug given the current cost in comparison to the Pz1V. Perhaps the PzIV is a little to inexpensive.
This issue is fairly complex unfortunately.
I'd suggest:
T-34 cost remains the same.
Stug fuel decreased to 90.
PzIV fuel increased to 120.
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