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Ladies and Gentlemen - the German AT rifle

What do you think of this idea?
Option Distribution Votes
28%
28%
44%
Total votes: 32
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
30 Jan 2016, 23:16 PM
#1
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 927

Hey all!

So in the recent patch, axis forces tend to have a problem with light vehicles where they can respond in the following ways.

1. Get wiped off the map (Ostheer)
2. Spam the garden out of Volk Schrecks (OKW)

Both which are either not good for the game. So to fix this, I propose the following - the German AT rifle.

At the moment, armour-wise there is nothing to distinguish Allied light and medium armour. I feel something like an AT rifle that is useful for killing light armour (more effective than pzschreck) but is useless/very situational for killing medium armour is something that is needed. ATM the Soviet AT rifle and zook to an extent fills that role where they're very good against light vehicles but very so so against medium armour. Its a kind of hole in the AT arsenal that the Germans are lacking and I feel it could make medium armour for allies a bit more meaningful.

But where would the German AT rifle go?

Well for OKW, I already made a post outlining
this - essentially we remove schrecks from the volks and add a new panzerjager squad which starts off with an AT rifle that can be upgraded to panzerschreks. The upgrade isn't simple because AT rifles have better DPM against light vehicles than schrecks but have less penn. So an upgrade as such becomes DPM for pennetration.

As for Ostheer, I propose that it goes on the Pioneers. It doesn't really fit anywhere else in the Ostheer armory and at the same time, I feel that it gives Ostheer a bit of counterplay to light vehicles while not completely discouraging light vehicle play. Moreover, if pioneers get the AT rifle, they cant get a sweeper or flamer so they trade AT ability for AI or utility. Also, Pioneers can't really be spammed either so you won't end up with something like volk blobs of doom.

IMO for pioneers, the AT rifle should cost 60 muni and be available after battle phase 1 is researched, much like the MG42.

TLDR: Changes proposed:
1. Make new squad for OKW in med truck that starts with AT rifles upgradable to schrecks.
2. With squad for 1, remove schreck upgrade for Volk and give them upgradeable MP40 as discussed in other thread.
3. Allow pioneers to get AT rifle for 60 muni once Battle Phase 1 is researched for Ostheer.

Thanks for reading! If you have any comments, whether you agree or not or whether you want to see any tweaks, please comment in this thread :)
30 Jan 2016, 23:24 PM
#2
avatar of Le Wish
Patrion 14

Posts: 813 | Subs: 1

In my opinion, it always better to go try to fix what is broken, instead of adding new content that needs to be balanced in. Not that I mind new stuff, I think its alot of fun. Just saying that fixing something should be actualy fixing, not applying a bandaid, since that solution often brings new problems, and this in turn leads to new stuff and we got an endless spiral.
30 Jan 2016, 23:26 PM
#3
avatar of Talore

Posts: 73

I like the idea of pioneers with AT rifles, but I agree with Le Wish that adding a bunch of content is really counter-productive to obtaining a stable game balance. It blows my mind when people demand tons of new content while also complaining that Relic can't balance things.
30 Jan 2016, 23:30 PM
#4
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 927

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2016, 23:24 PMLe Wish
In my opinion, it always better to go try to fix what is broken, instead of adding new content that needs to be balanced in. Not that I mind new stuff, I think its alot of fun. Just saying that fixing something should be actualy fixing, not applying a bandaid, since that solution often brings new problems, and this in turn leads to new stuff and we got an endless spiral.


I'd like to agree with you but as we saw from OKW rework, that sadly is not the case.

And if applied conservatively or in a thought out way, AT rifle isn't really a bandaid solution because it has a limited window of opportunity.

I do feel that German AT not being able to distinguish between light and medium armour is a serious design flaw that does need fixing and what better time to do it than when ost is getting roflstomped by Light armour.
30 Jan 2016, 23:32 PM
#5
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Actually, Panzerbuchses are already in the game, they are used inside the Theatre of War missions. This would indicate the Wehrmacht and Soviet factions are already all fully-functional with the weapons, but it's possible the USF, UKF and OKW's units weren't made to use them considering in official content they currently can't interact. One could probably test if that is the case or not with the CheatCommands mod, since I think it allows you to drop those weapons and play around with them, but I haven't done so myself.
31 Jan 2016, 00:03 AM
#6
avatar of Carlos Danger

Posts: 362

Problem is that German forces would have stopped using this weapon around 1942 or so.
31 Jan 2016, 00:14 AM
#7
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Problem is that German forces would have stopped using this weapon around 1942 or so.

They also wouldn't have used stun grenades though, and Soviets infantry would have been snorting PPShes, and Americans would have had mortars, etc...matching history in this game's more of a frequent bonus rather than a design decision adhered to.
31 Jan 2016, 00:20 AM
#8
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

It is a nice idea but:
1. I wouldnt change OKW at all, they have early AT, the puppchen.
2. I would give the rifle to actuall combat infantry: the grenadiers. They are less spammable than pios. And it would be much more of a choice between LMG and AT than just between flamer and AT. This would work well against LMG meta too. And ofc they are not T0 but T1 unit.

Problem is that German forces would have stopped using this weapon around 1942 or so.


They would with higher probability than soviets or brits. They are figting in their own country in 1945 and every AT weapon, even outdated, is better than none.
31 Jan 2016, 01:32 AM
#9
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 927

It is a nice idea but:
1. I wouldnt change OKW at all, they have early AT, the puppchen.
2. I would give the rifle to actuall combat infantry: the grenadiers. They are less spammable than pios. And it would be much more of a choice between LMG and AT than just between flamer and AT. This would work well against LMG meta too. And ofc they are not T0 but T1 unit.


The problem with the puppchen is the range is relatively inadequate and as such its very clumsy to use. At the same time, I'm trying to fix the meta of volk schreck spam.

The Gren is valid too, so you end up picking between MG42 and AT rifle. I kinda preferred the pioneers more because they're more of a short ranged unit than the grens but I can see Grenadiers easily working too.


They would with higher probability than soviets or brits. They are figting in their own country in 1945 and every AT weapon, even outdated, is better than none.


That would be true. Keep in mind that while it certainly would be outdated against modern tanks, it certainly isn't outdated against light vehicles and the allies would have fielded a fair number of these just like the Germans.

Hell the Soviets used AT rifles to great effect in 1945 against the Japs.
31 Jan 2016, 02:36 AM
#10
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Game should show a popcorn Hollywood portrayal of WW2 that's still authentic. German AT rifles in late '44: no.

Ost just needs a Hotchkiss(only half light/medium that they fielded) or 222 tweaks, and okw just needs a redesign of Volks with potential puppchen tweaks or something.
31 Jan 2016, 03:12 AM
#11
avatar of edibleshrapnel

Posts: 552

Wasn't there an AT rifle in the campaign or something?
31 Jan 2016, 03:26 AM
#12
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Wasn't there an AT rifle in the campaign or something?


In ToW mode Panzergrens have MP40s and upgrade to AT rifles.
31 Jan 2016, 03:26 AM
#13
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 927

Game should show a popcorn Hollywood portrayal of WW2 that's still authentic. German AT rifles in late '44: no.

Ost just needs a Hotchkiss(only half light/medium that they fielded) or 222 tweaks, and okw just needs a redesign of Volks with potential puppchen tweaks or something.


Firstly ostheer and Soviets are loosely based on 1942-1944/45 units.

Secondly Hotchkiss fighting on the eastern front is no more realistic than AT rifles, which almost certainly would have been used in the earlier parts of the war.

As I was saying just because it's obsolete against modern tanks doesn't mean that it's completely useless, all armies fielded a wide variety of light vehicles.

I would have rather this squad been armed with panzerfausts if fausts weren't associated with engine crits tbh. This is the next best thing.
31 Jan 2016, 03:27 AM
#14
avatar of edibleshrapnel

Posts: 552



In ToW mode Panzergrens have MP40s and upgrade to AT rifles.


Yeah, one of the forgotten Relics from ToW.
31 Jan 2016, 06:57 AM
#15
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2016, 03:26 AMhubewa


Firstly ostheer and Soviets are loosely based on 1942-1944/45 units.

Secondly Hotchkiss fighting on the eastern front is no more realistic than AT rifles, which almost certainly would have been used in the earlier parts of the war.

As I was saying just because it's obsolete against modern tanks doesn't mean that it's completely useless, all armies fielded a wide variety of light vehicles.

I would have rather this squad been armed with panzerfausts if fausts weren't associated with engine crits tbh. This is the next best thing.


I was joking about the Hotchkiss but in all honestly buffing infantry AT (even in timing or utility) isn't the way to go for Ost, 222 buff is. Imagine double snipers into AT rifle Grenadier spam into ostwind-it would break the game.

On volks I think that a special Faust that did more damage but was expensive would be cool. Idk how you could explain it but im thinking like 50 munis being able to bring Stuart to 100/340 HP would be fair considering shrek loss.
31 Jan 2016, 09:05 AM
#16
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
Panzerjager squad in medic truck. Stg + faust package side tech for volks in shwerer. 222 health, armor, and accuracy buff + cost increase. Wehr sniper to t2. reduce mp price of t2 to 200 from 300. Please and thank you.
1 Feb 2016, 01:25 AM
#17
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

Panzerjager squad in medic truck. Stg + faust package side tech for volks in shwerer. 222 health, armor, and accuracy buff + cost increase. Wehr sniper to t2. reduce mp price of t2 to 200 from 300. Please and thank you.

Banned? Why? :huh:
1 Feb 2016, 01:39 AM
#18
avatar of Mortar
Donator 22

Posts: 559

OST has 2 snares and the best AT gun in the game.

OKW has shrek blobs, mines, and a very capable raketenwerfer.

I like the idea of new items like an AT rifle to keep the game fresh, HOWEVER balance trumps new units/items and this would most likely upset balance. MAYBE if they made OKW shreks very expensive and used it as an alternative form of early AT....
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