Hey guys
I saw there is an old thread about this but I would like to bring this up to speed.
I played a 2v2 yesterday. one soviet player went all mgs and then brought out zis. The other player covered with a normal build.
My original thought was to hold out for puma but by then it was too late and they had control over most of the map. I wanted to go Flaktrack but I was concerned it would get slowly cut down by mgs and if hit with a at nad... gg.
I realize this doesn't work on every map. We where playing on minsk. Since then I banned the map to avoid any more embarrassment.
Only other thing I can think of is to spam inf guns and mgs of my own.
Thoughts guys?
Thanks
-Jeeves
Maxim spam. - Best way to deal with...
21 Feb 2015, 02:12 AM
#1
Posts: 91
21 Feb 2015, 15:02 PM
#2
Posts: 10
Hey man!
My standart build with Okw in allmost every game from 1v1-4v4 is this:
Against Soviet: volks,volks,volks,volks,T1,retreat point,volks/raketen,(schreks),T3,obers,
obers/luchs (if good fuel income),and late game is usually commandpanther or regular panther.
I dont use OKW mg's against soviet mg's,waste of resource. Your volks can stay long enough under fire from mg,so u can flank with stums/volks. Use well ur retreat point,it will be more punishing for soviet to retreat to their base,than you to ur retreat point. Upgrade schrecks only when u see soviet tanks,save ur ammo,dont throw nade,unless u know for sure it will kill 4/6 models,2 models in mg is peace of cake
Your obers can handle those mg and ziz's with easy,just remember flank.
I dont use pumas,only maybe in 1v1 game. It requires lot of micro. Your volks can handle mid game armor and light vechile fairly well. I build IsG inf gun only when soviet starts make mortars or blob they infantry. Those 430mp i rather use on volk/raketen,more use from them.
Hope this helped.
My standart build with Okw in allmost every game from 1v1-4v4 is this:
Against Soviet: volks,volks,volks,volks,T1,retreat point,volks/raketen,(schreks),T3,obers,
obers/luchs (if good fuel income),and late game is usually commandpanther or regular panther.
I dont use OKW mg's against soviet mg's,waste of resource. Your volks can stay long enough under fire from mg,so u can flank with stums/volks. Use well ur retreat point,it will be more punishing for soviet to retreat to their base,than you to ur retreat point. Upgrade schrecks only when u see soviet tanks,save ur ammo,dont throw nade,unless u know for sure it will kill 4/6 models,2 models in mg is peace of cake
Your obers can handle those mg and ziz's with easy,just remember flank.I dont use pumas,only maybe in 1v1 game. It requires lot of micro. Your volks can handle mid game armor and light vechile fairly well. I build IsG inf gun only when soviet starts make mortars or blob they infantry. Those 430mp i rather use on volk/raketen,more use from them.
Hope this helped.
21 Feb 2015, 16:14 PM
#3
Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4
A puma? What would you plan to do with it?
Luchs/Falls, leig if you're really desperate. God, even an ober will snipe the gunner allowing you to close. Or if you insist on that building the stuka is the ultimate piss on their parade device, especially in a team game.
Luchs/Falls, leig if you're really desperate. God, even an ober will snipe the gunner allowing you to close. Or if you insist on that building the stuka is the ultimate piss on their parade device, especially in a team game.
21 Feb 2015, 21:11 PM
#4
Posts: 91
I think you guys are missing the point here. By the time luchs come out you have lost. There is no way to flank really when there are 3-4 maxims grouped up covering all approaches. literally like 4-5 minutes in the game there where 5-6 maxims between the two of them.
21 Feb 2015, 21:15 PM
#5
Posts: 91
A puma? What would you plan to do with it?
Luchs/Falls, leig if you're really desperate. God, even an ober will snipe the gunner allowing you to close. Or if you insist on that building the stuka is the ultimate piss on their parade device, especially in a team game.
I thought the puma had a better chance to hold up against mg fire the flaktrack. It didnt work so I wont make that mistake again.
22 Feb 2015, 17:00 PM
#6
Posts: 738
On certain maps (Minsk, trois point etc) if you are double OKW vs Maxim spam you have already lost. OKW do not own a reliable MG counter like the Wehr mortar or sniper/Rifle grenades.
Rushing a luch or Stuka is shooting yourself in the foot because they will already be on their first T-34 by then, if the game lasts that long you need all your fuel for a Panther/Jagdpanzer.
Rushing a luch or Stuka is shooting yourself in the foot because they will already be on their first T-34 by then, if the game lasts that long you need all your fuel for a Panther/Jagdpanzer.
22 Feb 2015, 17:28 PM
#7
Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4
Rollo I think you're mistaken about your timing in a coin flip game territory wise a med truck to luchs combo will arrive about the time a t70 will hit, granted they've not put fuel elsewhere ie script upgrades.
I always like to approach these situations like a puzzle how do i crack this position and what do I need to execute that plan? So step 1 is always reconaisence, don't let your whole force get pinned all at once, especially before you know what you're dealing with. There's always a hole somewhere, the goal isn't to take them out rather to make them ineffective, find that hole and make it bigger, force them to reposition. It just struck me as well the sturmoffiziers force retreat could be powerful in that situation too if that doctrine interests you. Another point is made by Charlie don't surf in a thread regarding countering the luchs flakht et. All (worth a look to see the other perspective) in that their army is going to have deficiencies elsewhere and its up to you to find and punish them for instance less scripts no scout cars concentration of forces poor mobility etc.
I always like to approach these situations like a puzzle how do i crack this position and what do I need to execute that plan? So step 1 is always reconaisence, don't let your whole force get pinned all at once, especially before you know what you're dealing with. There's always a hole somewhere, the goal isn't to take them out rather to make them ineffective, find that hole and make it bigger, force them to reposition. It just struck me as well the sturmoffiziers force retreat could be powerful in that situation too if that doctrine interests you. Another point is made by Charlie don't surf in a thread regarding countering the luchs flakht et. All (worth a look to see the other perspective) in that their army is going to have deficiencies elsewhere and its up to you to find and punish them for instance less scripts no scout cars concentration of forces poor mobility etc.
22 Feb 2015, 19:43 PM
#8
Posts: 738
>I think you're mistaken about your timing in a coin flip game territory wise a med truck to luchs combo will arrive about the time a t70 will hit, granted they've not put fuel elsewhere ie script upgrades.
I disagree about the timing, as Jeeves says by the time they've locked down both fuels you're already way behind on the fuel war by then and a T-70 will be out before you can even build a Luch. Why would they waste fuel on early script upgrades when they can counter the Kubel just fine with Maxims?
Spreading out your forces across the map is probably the worst thing you can do against aggressive Con/Maxim play because early OKW units are useless without supporting each other. You need to keep your units close-knit and flank while he suppresses your Volks.
But the above point is not always doable as the OP pointed out on maps like Minsk where it is very easy for double Sov to just maxim creep up on your fuel while holding their own and you have pretty much zero flanking potential with your only early game counter (Sturms).
>It just struck me as well the sturmoffiziers force retreat could be powerful in that situation too if that doctrine interests you.
Wrong doctrine choice in all honesty, you need Scavenge doctrine in this situation for infiltration grenades to complement your Volks and Jaegers for sprint+grenade spam. Wasting muni on the Sturm officer and vanilla grenades to deal with maxims that will just retreat and reposition will only prevent you from equipping shreks.
I disagree about the timing, as Jeeves says by the time they've locked down both fuels you're already way behind on the fuel war by then and a T-70 will be out before you can even build a Luch. Why would they waste fuel on early script upgrades when they can counter the Kubel just fine with Maxims?
Spreading out your forces across the map is probably the worst thing you can do against aggressive Con/Maxim play because early OKW units are useless without supporting each other. You need to keep your units close-knit and flank while he suppresses your Volks.
But the above point is not always doable as the OP pointed out on maps like Minsk where it is very easy for double Sov to just maxim creep up on your fuel while holding their own and you have pretty much zero flanking potential with your only early game counter (Sturms).
>It just struck me as well the sturmoffiziers force retreat could be powerful in that situation too if that doctrine interests you.
Wrong doctrine choice in all honesty, you need Scavenge doctrine in this situation for infiltration grenades to complement your Volks and Jaegers for sprint+grenade spam. Wasting muni on the Sturm officer and vanilla grenades to deal with maxims that will just retreat and reposition will only prevent you from equipping shreks.
22 Feb 2015, 20:36 PM
#9
Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4
I disagree about the timing, as Jeeves says by the time they've locked down both fuels
Spreading out your forces across the map is probably the worst thing you can do against aggressive Con/Maxim play because early OKW units are useless without supporting each other. You need to keep your units close-knit and flank while he suppresses your Volks.
>It just struck me as well the sturmoffiziers force retreat could be powerful in that situation too if that doctrine interests you.
Wrong doctrine choice in all honesty, you need Scavenge doctrine in this situation for infiltration grenades to complement your Volks and Jaegers for sprint+grenade spam. Wasting muni on the Sturm officer and vanilla grenades to deal with maxims that will just retreat and reposition will only prevent you from equipping shreks.
I'll address your last paragraph first and say you're spot on. I'd not played with that commander, those abilities sound powerful, but I don't follow your circular reasoning in your previous paragraphs. Allow me to rebut:
I'll start with any specific map argument by using the ultimate counter, the veto system, and to address your other points: how can an "aggressive con/maxim player" lock down both fuels without spreading their forces, leaving massive holes? I might be losing the thrust of the thread but in my experience the only way this sort of play becomes bothersome is if they're locking down a killzone on a rather narrow section of ground; and frankly, in the unfortunate situation you've lost both fuels, there are likely a lot of other deficiencies in one's game.
Along those same lines: "early OKW units are useless without supporting each other" what is a maxim without support? Which is why I suggest playing around them, spreading one's troops. It's not about looking for a knockout in the early game, the trick is looking to counter his early game, keeping it even, and beat them mid/late game.
My main point is as, OKW teching is so wonky that if you manage to at the very least keep terriotry 50/50, the Soviets can be pretty easily defeated. That means avoiding fighting loosing engagements such as well entrenched defenses without the proper equipment and preserving troops, allowing the vet system to kick in.
22 Feb 2015, 22:34 PM
#10
Posts: 226
On certain maps (Minsk, trois point etc) if you are double OKW vs Maxim spam you have already lost. OKW do not own a reliable MG counter like the Wehr mortar or sniper/Rifle grenades.
Rushing a luch or Stuka is shooting yourself in the foot because they will already be on their first T-34 by then, if the game lasts that long you need all your fuel for a Panther/Jagdpanzer.
Pretty much this. You have a REAL hard time countering GARRISONED maxims with only OKW units. This is one, if not the biggest weakness of OKW in team games (the lack of indirect fire/flames to counter garrisoned units).
As others have said, if you wait for Luchs/Stuka you've pretty much already lost.
The only real success I have had countering maxim garrison spam is with an Early AA HT. If you haven't already, forgo building a kubelwagen, as this will delay your AA HT and will be of little use against maxims.
My build when I expect/see Maxim spam is this: Volksx3 > Mech HQ > Volks.
The trick is with how you use the AA HT. if you're new to the AA HT, it might take a while to get good at using it, but once you do it can be very effective. Because the soviet opponent went T2, you should expect early Zis. with garrisoned maxims, what I usually do is park the flak HT right next to the building I want to attack. Do this on the side of the building you have control over, obviously - the whole idea is for the building to act as a shot-blocker for any Zis' the Soviet might have. This is risky, as a con rush with AT nades can seriously cripple or even destroy your HT. Have your volks nearby just out of maxim range to deter and other threats/ensure a safe retreat of the AA HT. Take note that a maxim will also steadily damage an AA HT, especially if there is 2-3 maxims firing on it (as their usually is).
If the Maxim's aren't in a building, try and setup the AA HT so that it can shoot the maxim, but not expose itself to any potential zis' positions. One handy hint with the AA HT: NEVER order your AA HT to attack a unit that you are not CERTAIN is within it's range, as doing so will cause it to setup/re-setup which can mean a dead AA HT if you did not want it to do this. Also, remember that the AA HT does amazing AoE suppression/damage, so if there is a unit just around a corner that you can not quite hit, order the AA HT to attack ground right next to the enemy squad. Once you get the AA HT to vet1 it gets smoke and you can afford to be a little more aggressive with it.
I've tried pretty much everything to counter maxim garrison spam, and this is by far the most successful counter I've tried. It does take a while to master, and it IS quite risky, but if you pull it off it works wonders.
Best of Luck!
23 Feb 2015, 10:09 AM
#11
Posts: 1159
You could consider the infiltration nades combined with lots of volks.
Flank very carefully on mass from many directions, the infl nades will own MG and even ones in buildings.
If this eats into your shrek fund a little bit you might find you need a puma or a Jagdpanzer for their T3. And a rakketten to protect it.
Try to work on stealing a ZiS if you get thr chance. And maxims for that matter.
Flank very carefully on mass from many directions, the infl nades will own MG and even ones in buildings.
If this eats into your shrek fund a little bit you might find you need a puma or a Jagdpanzer for their T3. And a rakketten to protect it.
Try to work on stealing a ZiS if you get thr chance. And maxims for that matter.
23 Feb 2015, 10:29 AM
#12
Posts: 1122
Kubel into triple volks, ultra aggressive play.
Maxims is joke this patch. If it is building map (Moscow outskirts enemy cutoff buildings is good example), and you see t2 in fog of war, rush most important building with your first sturmipo, kubel and first volks, back cap with second/third. You won, until you double teamed, and even then if you manage to get into building, you won as it is takes awful amount of time to force sturms which will be replaced with second volks form the building with maxims, and building mortars this early is suicide. Balanced okw is balanced.
On open maps just use kubels to suppress maxims while flanking with other units, he would be forced to retreat, and it is impossible to lose kubel to any maxims opening until you fucked up.
If you still have problems, use infiltration grenades to counter maxims in buildings, and rush obers. Lone Maxim under vet 2 obers fire on close-medium distance usually would be dead if he started retreating after losing first model. Balanced okw still balanced.
Maxims is joke this patch. If it is building map (Moscow outskirts enemy cutoff buildings is good example), and you see t2 in fog of war, rush most important building with your first sturmipo, kubel and first volks, back cap with second/third. You won, until you double teamed, and even then if you manage to get into building, you won as it is takes awful amount of time to force sturms which will be replaced with second volks form the building with maxims, and building mortars this early is suicide. Balanced okw is balanced.
On open maps just use kubels to suppress maxims while flanking with other units, he would be forced to retreat, and it is impossible to lose kubel to any maxims opening until you fucked up.
If you still have problems, use infiltration grenades to counter maxims in buildings, and rush obers. Lone Maxim under vet 2 obers fire on close-medium distance usually would be dead if he started retreating after losing first model. Balanced okw still balanced.
24 Feb 2015, 20:59 PM
#13
10 
Posts: 963 | Subs: 11
High risk/High Reward:
AA HT + infiltration nades
IMO AA HT is high level play. OKW need very good map awareness to play aggressively with the HT which are very vulverable to AT grenades, mines and zis guns (without vet1 smoke). If the map dont have good cut off a good soviet player will just stall for a quick T70 to counter the AA HT. Also without pak43 or quick obers OKW have nothing to fall back on if the AA HT is lost to early.
Low Risk/Medium Reward:
infiltration nades + quick obers + suppression bulletins for volks
+ maybe a fast luchs if OKW have good map control or puma after obers to counter the T70
This is more "newbie" friendly and I personally used that before I got good with the AA HT. As a soviet player I see alot of OKW players that get into trouble vs maxim/con spam because AA HT is high level play.
For OKW its important to know that Maxim dont scale well against obers so if you delay tech for AA HT its either agressive play or gg. Cons are the best flanking unit in the game and combined with zis guns/quick T70/mines/demos its not easy using AA HT against decent soviet players.
Yes its very rewarding when OKW use the AA HT well but some games OKW will make mistakes with it and then usual its light out.
I do encourage OKW players to use the AA HT because it makes the meta game more interesting than just going for quick obers in every game. Just know that any decent soviet player can counter or stall the AA HT pretty well if OKW make any mistakes with it. If you watch popular streams from top axis players like Luvnest/helpinghans, they also do occasional mistakes with the AA HT and lose games because of it.
AA HT + infiltration nades
IMO AA HT is high level play. OKW need very good map awareness to play aggressively with the HT which are very vulverable to AT grenades, mines and zis guns (without vet1 smoke). If the map dont have good cut off a good soviet player will just stall for a quick T70 to counter the AA HT. Also without pak43 or quick obers OKW have nothing to fall back on if the AA HT is lost to early.
Low Risk/Medium Reward:
infiltration nades + quick obers + suppression bulletins for volks
+ maybe a fast luchs if OKW have good map control or puma after obers to counter the T70
This is more "newbie" friendly and I personally used that before I got good with the AA HT. As a soviet player I see alot of OKW players that get into trouble vs maxim/con spam because AA HT is high level play.
For OKW its important to know that Maxim dont scale well against obers so if you delay tech for AA HT its either agressive play or gg. Cons are the best flanking unit in the game and combined with zis guns/quick T70/mines/demos its not easy using AA HT against decent soviet players.
Yes its very rewarding when OKW use the AA HT well but some games OKW will make mistakes with it and then usual its light out.
I do encourage OKW players to use the AA HT because it makes the meta game more interesting than just going for quick obers in every game. Just know that any decent soviet player can counter or stall the AA HT pretty well if OKW make any mistakes with it. If you watch popular streams from top axis players like Luvnest/helpinghans, they also do occasional mistakes with the AA HT and lose games because of it.
25 Feb 2015, 19:24 PM
#14
Posts: 91
I would like to see some replays where double okw was successful against maxim spam...
27 Mar 2015, 17:51 PM
#15
Posts: 658
difficult to deal with good micro maxim spam as axis,stuka or IG i think works, use volks nade....
22 Apr 2015, 10:12 AM
#16
6 
Posts: 42
Yea its very difficult to deal with but try fallschirmjeagers to flank them and when they dont set up in buildings or when they go inside buildings try the migty stuka
"Who fights can win, who does not fight has already lost." Brecht
23 May 2015, 09:50 AM
#17
Posts: 13
Imo if you believe or see potential maxim spam is be aggressive. You cannot let him hit optimal maxim spam number or he will be trenched in for the long haul (at guns etc.). Get two sturmpios and kite the living shit out of him. Use your kubel to pin and if possible let your shitty volks take the heat and then steal the gun. Now if that spam gets in buildings you are very screwed for a long time. The leigh will take way to long to do anything useful. So if you build the medic truck with maxim spam underway you pretty much lost. Your only saving grace is if you picked a doc that has the assault nades because those destroy buildings very fast. If you didnt sign your own death wish and went instead with the mech truck. Getting that stuka out as fast as possible is everything. The longer they have the fuel the less chance of you winning. Every minute counts. Because going stuka means you will not be getting a tank for a very very very long time (taking into account you have had no fuel for practically the entire game). So you say what to do? My answer is mine, mine everything. That 30 muni mine is the only thing holding back the hordes of tanks or tank (as in the case of IS2). You know it and I know it your rak is going to get shitted on by those enemy tanks. If they are not crippled the rak will be gone very soon just leaving your bunched up easy target volks to die.
23 May 2015, 12:59 PM
#18
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
- 4-5 Volks + Kubel into t2 fuel upgrade into Shcwei fast p2 is your best bet imo. The Kubel helps suppress the maxims at range allowing you to flank with more ease since their rotation is slowed while suppressed, giving you time to at least flank one firing at you.
- Alternatively you could go volk spam into fast t2 Stuka to wipe them indirectly if your micro isn't up to snuff.
- You could also if you feel threatened by a really aggressive Maxim spammer is dbl kubel into 3 volks, guarantying the first 1-3 maxims will get suppressed and possibly taken as the 2 maxims following the first don't come out at the same time. Just make sure if the maxims are supported by multiple cons to have your partner try and take the flak of the suppression and engage the cons first while you send your kubel to suppress said maxim and flank it. Once the ZiS is out then focus everything on that if possible so your Kubels don't die 5-7 mins into the game, though eventually they will die sadly, but it will allow you to keep your early game presence at least even with your opponents.
30 May 2015, 14:28 PM
#19
Posts: 1951
Hey guys
I saw there is an old thread about this but I would like to bring this up to speed.
I played a 2v2 yesterday. one soviet player went all mgs and then brought out zis. The other player covered with a normal build.
My original thought was to hold out for puma but by then it was too late and they had control over most of the map. I wanted to go Flaktrack but I was concerned it would get slowly cut down by mgs and if hit with a at nad... gg.
I realize this doesn't work on every map. We where playing on minsk. Since then I banned the map to avoid any more embarrassment.
Only other thing I can think of is to spam inf guns and mgs of my own.
Thoughts guys?
Thanks
-Jeeves
As someone who likes to spam maxims, I'd like it if you tried to counter with mg's. Inf gun is a little more problematic but not much. Flanking with infiltration grenades is a major pain, especially because maxim has a really narrow firing angle.
30 May 2015, 14:38 PM
#20
Posts: 1653
Sniper does the job
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