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russian armor

artillery and late game squadwipes

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20 Dec 2014, 19:21 PM
#81
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Dec 2014, 17:04 PMNapalm


You noticed this too eh? I'm happy that Soviets have had all their heavy tanks adjusted so squad wiping is a rare occurrence. Shame the same logic can't be applied to the Tiger, King Tiger, and walking Stuka.

I think there needs to be more late game squad wipes. This is war. Not some magic land where a group of infantry can sit in front of a tank and not die to the main gun. Some of my more forward thinking Bears have adapted to this magic land by using tanks like a monster truck. Crushing is far more rewarding than using the main gun for anti-infantry purposes.


I've noticed that certain faction's fanboys wallowing in victim mentality is quite over the top, actually.

If late game squad wipes are supposed to be common, then a faction should not have to forfeit a game due to an RNG wipe.
20 Dec 2014, 22:21 PM
#82
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
I KNOW MANY COMPLAIN about rng. but personally I feel coh2 isnt coh2 without rng.

If I lose a squad to some random thing not only do I laugh but I immerse myself in the war like experience that coh2 seeks to offer.

many high level players I feel are forgetting that this game can be fun. not always competitive.
20 Dec 2014, 22:35 PM
#83
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331



Please elaborate.



CoH1 had silly random squad wipes, Devm vs Symbi SNF4 comes to mind as the big example.



Sure some weird stuff happened, but at such a small scale that it actually added to the gamplay in my opinion as war is ultimately a very random sequence of events. In COH2 unwarranted squad wipes happen more than once per match - they have become an unacceptable part of the gameplay.

Even pro players don't know when its safe to stay or retreat, I see world champs losing squads in the first few mins - it's not how a game should be. Especially not how a company heroes game should be.

I don't know why so many people are willing to accept completely franchise breaking decisions that only detract from the game and add nothing - people's standards are just too low.
20 Dec 2014, 22:40 PM
#84
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

I KNOW MANY COMPLAIN about rng. but personally I feel coh2 isnt coh2 without rng.

If I lose a squad to some random thing not only do I laugh but I immerse myself in the war like experience that coh2 seeks to offer.

many high level players I feel are forgetting that this game can be fun. not always competitive.
Exactly how I feel. Brofist.


Only difference is I feel really excited for every squad I lose to RNG. :megusta:
20 Dec 2014, 22:45 PM
#85
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331

I KNOW MANY COMPLAIN about rng. but personally I feel coh2 isnt coh2 without rng.

If I lose a squad to some random thing not only do I laugh but I immerse myself in the war like experience that coh2 seeks to offer.

many high level players I feel are forgetting that this game can be fun. not always competitive.


No one is saying to remove the element of chance or random events happening, in COH this was one of the best parts of the game - we are saying that relics choice to remove many variables from the game results in unacceptable levels of pure random luck which is ruining the game. It literally at a spot where you win or lose some engagements completely by chance, nothing you can do will influence the matter.

That's not how any game should work, let alone a "competitive" RTS game - considering that its predecessor already had this part down pat.

COH never suffered from this problem - in fact its the perfect benchmark to judge COH2 on and so far COH2 is failing horribly.

20 Dec 2014, 23:19 PM
#86
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

I KNOW MANY COMPLAIN about rng. but personally I feel coh2 isnt coh2 without rng.

If I lose a squad to some random thing not only do I laugh but I immerse myself in the war like experience that coh2 seeks to offer.

many high level players I feel are forgetting that this game can be fun. not always competitive.


i think many would agree rng is nice in COH2, but unpreventable rng is not so great. His is a strategy game, player want to be in control of their units, and outcomes. I don't like having the crazy rng stuff like planes crashing on troops and wiping out an entire army.
20 Dec 2014, 23:37 PM
#87
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

Just nerf the M8 Greyhound canister shot, everything else is fine. /thread.
20 Dec 2014, 23:49 PM
#88
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

I would be fine with not being able to build B4 in your own base, considering I never actually do that because it makes getting a good hit to get your Vet1 accurate shot a huge gamble.
20 Dec 2014, 23:57 PM
#89
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Dec 2014, 23:19 PMNinjaWJ


i think many would agree rng is nice in COH2, but unpreventable rng is not so great. His is a strategy game, player want to be in control of their units, and outcomes. I don't like having the crazy rng stuff like planes crashing on troops and wiping out an entire army.


in addition, i want to feel like i got outplayed by the opponent, not by a mortar that wipes squads without warning
21 Dec 2014, 00:12 AM
#90
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



in addition, i want to feel like i got outplayed by the opponent, not by a mortar that wipes squads without warning


+1 This.

/thread

21 Dec 2014, 00:25 AM
#91
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



in addition, i want to feel like i got outplayed by the opponent, not by a mortar that wipes squads without warning


I don't get it... So if I see that my enemy is blobing with 3 squads and I'm using precision strike with hope to wipe something, how it's 100% rng and 0% enemy's skill? Wipe is rng but it's not a stray bullet. It was used to kill, maybe wipe.

What's more, mortars are very inaccurate vs mobile infantry.
120 can provide huge MP drain but even with precision strike it's not 100% for a wipe.

If Im getting wipe by mortars it's because of 2 mortars and 2 shells hitting next to one after another.

Stock mortars don't wipe more often than 1/20 shells, I'm almost sure of that.

You are writing like those wipes are happening in every single game but they are not.
Sure, KT, ISU, Stuka etc are wiping all the time but mortars?
Even rifle nades wipe more often 6 man maxim/mortar/zis squad than stock mortar 4 men grens squad.
21 Dec 2014, 00:27 AM
#92
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7



I don't get it... So if I see that my enemy is blobing with 3 squads and I'm using precision strike with hope to wipe something, how it's 100% rng and 0% enemy's skill? Wipe is rng but it's not a stray bullet. It was used to kill, maybe wipe.

What's more, mortars are very inaccurate vs mobile infantry.
120 can provide huge MP drain but even with precision strike it's not 100% for a wipe.

If Im getting wipe by mortars it's because of 2 mortars and 2 shells hitting next to one after another.

Stock mortars don't wipe more often than 1/20 shells, I'm almost sure of that.

You are writing like those wipes are happening in every single game but they are not.
Sure, KT, ISU, Stuka etc are wiping all the time but mortars?
Even rifle nades wipe more often 6 man maxim/mortar/zis squad than stock mortar 4 men grens squad.


if you want we can play against you and demonstrate first hand

edit: and when i say mortar, i mean the 120mm, scott, and vet 2 pack howitzer
21 Dec 2014, 00:41 AM
#93
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



if you want we can play against you and demonstrate first hand

edit: and when i say mortar, i mean the 120mm, scott, and vet 2 pack howitzer


What about lg 18? It has lowe AoE, true, but also lower scatter.
I would change pack howizter for lg18 any day.
Keep in mind that it costs 480 and it's high risk - high reward unit.
Scott shares AoE with lg 18 and has higer scatter so lg 18 should wipe more often than Scott.
120 mm is very powerful but again, huge scatter.
81mm OST mortar also shares AoE with Scott.

Biggest issue are King Tiger and ISU bacause they are tracking unist so every shell has high chance to wipe while vs Scott you just need to keep your units on move.
21 Dec 2014, 00:55 AM
#94
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

pack howitzer recieves DOUBLE damage at vet 2, has white phos AND high explosive barrage. the scott is superior to the IG since you can generally operate at closer distances without risk of getting decrewed since its a vehicle, which means greater accuracy.
21 Dec 2014, 01:02 AM
#95
21 Dec 2014, 01:54 AM
#96
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



What about lg 18? It has lowe AoE, true, but also lower scatter.
I would change pack howizter for lg18 any day.
Keep in mind that it costs 480 and it's high risk - high reward unit.
Scott shares AoE with lg 18 and has higer scatter so lg 18 should wipe more often than Scott.
120 mm is very powerful but again, huge scatter.
81mm OST mortar also shares AoE with Scott.

Biggest issue are King Tiger and ISU bacause they are tracking unist so every shell has high chance to wipe while vs Scott you just need to keep your units on move.


You are failing to understand the mechanics behind the squad wipes. Pretty much the only thing that matters, with regard to 1-shot potential, is the AoE profile of the unit in question, which is directly related to the damage that that unit does per shot. This is why the 120mm mortar and vet 2 pack howi are the biggest offenders in the "mortar" category and why the 81mm mortar and 82mm mortar will rarely, if ever, 1-shot a full health squad of any size.

So here's what happens(as far as I know). The mortar "sees" a squad inside of it's AoE. Unless the mortar is on hold fire it will shoot a shell at that squad(or whatever squad you give it an attack order on). From here the game places a "pin" at the point where the mortar is aiming. After that the game assigns some scatter to the shot. Depending on the scatter, the shot could nail the squad dead on - or it could completely miss. There is literally NOTHING either player can do to influence this portion of the mortar shot. Even if your squad is moving it very well could move into the mortar shot, which is why higher scatter can actually be beneficial against moving targets, although in general higher scatter does cause the mortar to miss more often.

Now, the shell lands and damage is assigned to any units based on distance from the explosion. Things like the 120mm mortar and vet 2 pack howi do more damage so there is a larger area in which infantry will instantly die. Given this AoE and the small squad sizes of everything Wehr/Obers [sidenote: Obers are OP so I'm not complaining about them, just the 4 man squad mechanic] it leads to super easy squad wipes.

Basically, the scatter determines the consistency of the mortar in question. That's why the 81mm Wehr mortar tends to "snipe" units all the time, but as I said before, it rarely, if ever, will kill an entire 5/6 man squad at full hp. The low damage/AoE profile makes this highly unlikely.

How any of this involves skill from either player, as some people have claimed, is beyond me. The only thing you can do is try to keep your squads spread out since blobbing them will slightly increase the chance of a squad being hit, but even then a lone squad can get 1 shot.
21 Dec 2014, 02:14 AM
#97
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331



I don't get it... So if I see that my enemy is blobing with 3 squads and I'm using precision strike with hope to wipe something, how it's 100% rng and 0% enemy's skill? Wipe is rng but it's not a stray bullet. It was used to kill, maybe wipe.

What's more, mortars are very inaccurate vs mobile infantry.
120 can provide huge MP drain but even with precision strike it's not 100% for a wipe.

If Im getting wipe by mortars it's because of 2 mortars and 2 shells hitting next to one after another.

Stock mortars don't wipe more often than 1/20 shells, I'm almost sure of that.

You are writing like those wipes are happening in every single game but they are not.
Sure, KT, ISU, Stuka etc are wiping all the time but mortars?
Even rifle nades wipe more often 6 man maxim/mortar/zis squad than stock mortar 4 men grens squad.


Mortar in coh 2 fire much much faster than in COH - they are much more accurate, and its in the players best interest to not barrage them as they fire nearly as fast, with more accuracy on their own. With having a larger mortar like the soviet one, you basically have bought a random squad wipe machine, adding a "precision strike" ability only showcases just how little the game developers understand what made coh a good game.

This means you honestly need zero effort on your part for a mortar to hit and wipe a squad. In COh mortars fired slower, there was a way bigger time delay between firing and the mortar hitting the round ( so if u kept your troops mobile they would be save 90% of the time - watch how closely mortar impacts follow moving troops in Coh2 - its like a second behind) and therefore needed a lot of attention if you wanted to get any use out of them in a fluid game. They also had a much better system, for explosives damage and when they wiped a squad it felt like it was earned due to positing, some luck and your opponent failing to be fluid.
21 Dec 2014, 02:56 AM
#98
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
pack howitzer recieves DOUBLE damage at vet 2, has white phos AND high explosive barrage. the scott is superior to the IG since you can generally operate at closer distances without risk of getting decrewed since its a vehicle, which means greater accuracy.


HE barrage is replaced with AP barrage at vet 2.

on topic, I don't understand how u could remove rng from coh2. I also feel like mabey a mod should be created for competitive play that almost eliminates rng.

but I personally wont be viewing those games.

I like rng. and I am happy that coh2 literally runs on it
21 Dec 2014, 03:13 AM
#99
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

rng is fine when you can manipulate it, i.e. using cover. rng is not fine when you it alters the course of the game without player interaction i.e. planes crashing into your units
21 Dec 2014, 03:25 AM
#100
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



HE barrage is replaced with AP barrage at vet 2.

on topic, I don't understand how u could remove rng from coh2. I also feel like mabey a mod should be created for competitive play that almost eliminates rng.

but I personally wont be viewing those games.

I like rng. and I am happy that coh2 literally runs on it


I think you're misunderstanding us. We're not saying to remove RNG from CoH 2. We're saying to remove RNG when, and only when, it has a negative impact on the game.

I like RNG too, and can respect the positive influences that it has on CoH 2. It adds to the replay value and it adds to the tactical depth of the game. It also sets CoH 2 apart from other RTS like SC2/WC2/AoE series, which is cool - and it is a nice nod to the war theme, because war is chaotic.

However, when RNG has the potential to swing games to such an extent as are possible right now. Losing numerous vet 3 squads throughout the game to a mechanic that neither you nor your opponent actually have control over is not in any way good game design. Like Lemon said, when I lose I want to feel like I got outplayed. Why? Because then I can look back and learn from my losses and continue to become a better player. I can respect the fact that my opponent was more skilled than me, or happened to play better that particular match. That is what promotes an esport scene and that is what promotes mutual respect between players and makes close games so exciting to watch - you can see the ways in which the players are trying to out-think and out-play each other. It is fun to be in those situations and fun to watch those situations.

Purchasing a squad wipe slot machine that you literally place in one spot and wait for it to 1 shot things, in my opinion, has no place in COH 2. The 81 and 82mm mortar are in a really good spot, I don't see why the 120mm and Pack Howi have to be outliers with the ability to 1 shot squads because "LOL SOME PEOPLE LIKE RNG."

Penetration over range, infantry combat, scatter on indirect fire, small arms fire etc etc are all good examples of RNG. There is plenty of good RNG in CoH 2 to keep it exciting - but you'll notice that players almost always have a way to influence/react to good types of RNG.

TL;DR - There is good and bad RNG. Why can't we promote good types of RNG and work to eliminate the bad RNG.

Side-note: other forms of bad RNG in my opinion include heavy engine damage/destroy from faust/AT nades/cheap mines, vehicle death crits, abandons, etc.
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